Help! Male mice keep dieing!!

[saphire884]

Help! I'm so confused! over the past two weeks I have been buying some mice to start a breeder colony. I have picked pretty females and they have all come together splendidly, I picked a male with big uhhh... testies. And they all loved him, in the first week he mated with them consistantly, but I noticed the second week him slowing down in pace. Do the males do this when they know the female is pregnate? Anyway so I went out yesterday and picked up a new male and female (thinking maybe a new male would umph up the breeding) I took out the old male and only after a few hours I went back to the cage and the new male was dead. He didnt have any wounds or anything to indicate mosey murder so I figgured he was just defective from the pet store then I put the old male back in and the ladies were perfectly fine with him ( I found him sleeping/snuggling with one the next morning) but then later the next day I found him dead! All the ladies are fine, no signs of abuse on him. And I know its not over crowding because i have 4 females and one male in a twenty galon with a "burrowing maze fun house" ( that you would normaly attach to a tube habitat thing) in there. It's truly a mouse mansion! I call it "Chateu de Mouse". They have plenty of water and the best of food. What could be wrong? And why are only the males dieing? I'm just so upset because I wanted to give my mice the best of everything so they would be healthy and happy and produce many pinkies that I could feed to my 5 hatchling corns I just bought. I cant even feed off the females and start fresh because I only have hatchlings that can only eat pinkies. Plus I picked the girls because they are pretty and they can be my pets while also being useful. Any ideas as to whats wrong with the males and what I can do to fix it? Because this is a new colony I dont think introducing a new male will be dificult, but I just want him to stay alive!
Thanks for any advice/help in advance!

 

[wade]

Mice are very territorial. You can't play musical chairs with them. Once a colony is established you need to leave it alone. It is best to start with young mice 3 or 4 weeks old. Pick your females and one (ONE) male put them together. They will go through puberty together and will except each other as part of the colony as they reach sexual maturity. Once they reach sexual maturity you can't take the male out and put him back. The girls won't take him back. They will kill him and any new male you introduce.

In my colonies if the make dies I kill the whole colony.

 

[Tara80]

Honestly, you don't have to do that Wade. Mice are only territorial with a familiar environment (specifically smells).
If one of my existing males dies, I just move the colony to a new location (tank, tub, whatever) and re-introduce a male that way. I have had 100% success rate with this and never any new male deaths.
Also, you can play musical mice if you have the male in a separate tank and introduce a female to HIM for a certain length of time (I do this with some of my mice) and I usually keep a female in there for about 2 days then put her back into her colony BUT when I do that, I clean out the habitat meanwhile so that the existing mice are too caught up with the clean (new smelling) living quarters.
There is A LOT you can do to trick them into being accepting of one another.

 

[saphire884]

The thing is the females didnt kill them, thats what I was trying to say. Both males were unharmed. They were just laying there dead. I was just rather confused. And the females were just introduced progressivly over the last two weeks so they aren't established. i.e. I got one female and the original male and then like 5 days later two more females and then 4 days after that 1 more female, and only like 3 days ago did i put them in the 20 gal. So everything is new and the males werent killed. Thats why I'm confused.

 

[Tara80]

In many cases (not always obviously) when a mouse kills another it can be a completely clean death (i.e. breaking/biting the spine). I've purchased a batch of mice in the past where one female was literally HATED by the other females and they ganged up on her and killed her pretty quickly. There was no damage on her what-so-ever but I know they are the ones that killed her just based on their actions towards her when I got them home. It was obvious that they had severed her spine or something similar even though there was no obvious signs of trama.

 

[ComoxCorn]

I tend to agree more with Wade. I don't tamper with colonys. Once I have put them together, they remain that way, and if the male dies, I always have ready to go colonies to back that one up, so I cull the colony that has lost a male. I don't try to add females to a depleted colony either..
As far as evidence of the females savaging the male, I have had females kill a male before without visible trauma been apparent. The only time I actually caught the act happening, a female had a male pinned down, and had a hold of its throat. The male was dead, and there were no bite marks.
In short, like Wade said, don't mess around with the harems. Start them off as adolecents, and then leave the colony be. That has been the most successful method that has work for me.

 

[Em Wright]

I would also suggest not getting attached to the females in anyway, it might make it hard to cull them if something happens and makes it so you have to. :shrugs:

Something I read on here is that if you use a q-tip to dab vanilla on the ends of their nose it makes it easier to introduce them. I'd recommend doing it after having cleaned their cage but before you put them back in it. I would also recommend if you're going to hold them and restrain them that you wear a glove thick enough to protect the hand you're holding them with. Mice bites can suck so be cautious.

Though generally I'd have to agree that messing with the colony can be bad. If you feel you don't want to cull the females you do have, there are ways to help insure the new member won't get killed.

 

[Tara80]

I tend to agree more with Wade. I don't tamper with colonys. Once I have put them together, they remain that way, and if the male dies, I always have ready to go colonies to back that one up, so I cull the colony that has lost a male. I don't try to add females to a depleted colony either..
As far as evidence of the females savaging the male, I have had females kill a male before without visible trauma been apparent. The only time I actually caught the act happening, a female had a male pinned down, and had a hold of its throat. The male was dead, and there were no bite marks.
In short, like Wade said, don't mess around with the harems. Start them off as adolecents, and then leave the colony be. That has been the most successful method that has work for me.

To each his own :shrugs:

Personally I've had awesome luck with the way I do it. I've picked the method up from a local breeder here and was amazed by how well it worked for her but to me, it makes sense logically. Micie territorialism is based completely on smells- eradicate that and they are starting over. As I've said, I've introduced new mice more times then I can count and have had a 100% success rate as long as I clean out or swap tanks first. I am putting it out there because I don't know how many people out there actually know that.

Most of my mice are also held and played with on a regular basis (unless they are too pregnant) by my son as he loves them as much as he loves his snakes. We do value our mice as pets (so it would be impossible for me to cull the ones we are attached to).

 

[wade]

There are feeders and there are pets, never the twain shall meet.

 

[Em Wright]

There are feeders and there are pets, never the twain shall meet.

Wise words.

You don't buy a cow you intend to butcher, turn it into a pet for your kids, and then never butcher it. That wouldn't be very practical. :nope:

 

[saphire884]

I understand what you guys are saying about feeders, but these mice will probably never be feeders, just breeders. All my corns are small hatchlings, by the time they even get to hopper sized babies these mice will probably be dead or retired living in their mouse condo, and I'll have another colony going. So if I get attached it's no big deal. This isnt a cow meant for butchering because when I bought the mice I bought them as pets that can be useful by producing food (pinkies) for my snakies. As I told my boyfriend if it were easy and economical to breed my lovely pet birds to feed my cat then I would. But it's not, so I dont. Mice on the other hand are economical after you get set up. Also, ne reason why I want to breed my own is so I know where the babies are coming from and what kind of life the parents had. Mine will be very happy and have a great quality of life. So .... yeah. Tonight I put in two males t see which one turns out more dominate and if the other is still alive maybe start a second colony with him ( I read that in another thread with someone who was having trouble getting theirs to breed and kathy love said bring two in , take out the less dominate. So I'm trying it out. I'll keep you guys updated.

 

[ComoxCorn]

To each his own :shrugs:

Personally I've had awesome luck with the way I do it. I've picked the method up from a local breeder here and was amazed by how well it worked for her but to me, it makes sense logically. Micie territorialism is based completely on smells- eradicate that and they are starting over. As I've said, I've introduced new mice more times then I can count and have had a 100% success rate as long as I clean out or swap tanks first. I am putting it out there because I don't know how many people out there actually know that.

Most of my mice are also held and played with on a regular basis (unless they are too pregnant) by my son as he loves them as much as he loves his snakes. We do value our mice as pets (so it would be impossible for me to cull the ones we are attached to).

Honestly, I don't try to figure out the psychology of my mice colonies. They either produce, or they get culled. I keep enough mice in reserve to start colonies at will. When a male is killed off, it's time to replace the colony. When a colony continually cannabalizes, it's time to replace the colony. They are a food source for my snakes. I house them well, I treat them well, I feed them well, but I also consider them food, not pets.

 

[Em Wright]

If you're going to quote Kathy Love you might want to have a link to the thread she said that in. I personally would like to see exactly where she says it and in what context.

To me it seems kind of cruel... one of those males may very well die. For all you know both of them could die. I hope you at least took precautions to make the introduction less abrupt.

Another thing you might consider is retiring those females early and start breeding with another new colony. If you don't want to kill them you don't have to, but if your males keep dying I'd stop letting them die needlessly when there are other options.

 

[Tara80]

Wise words.

You don't buy a cow you intend to butcher, turn it into a pet for your kids, and then never butcher it. That wouldn't be very practical. :nope:

It is only the adults that are pets. Babies are fair game and that is what I breed for.
Adults I do F/T direct purchase.

And no, I don't 'psychologically' try to figure out my mice. I look at how they interact on a scientific basis- it's called 'research', usually you would want to do something like that to try to get the most out of what you've got. Meaning, I can keep them full scale breeding and producing all the pinkies and fuzzies I need (and still keep them as pets for my son) and I don't need to cull anything (ruin a completely decent colony) for no reason. Simple comparison would be learning about brumating our snakes for the purposes of maximizing breedings and egg production.

I don't know why you are making this concept so hard to understand

To the OP- I do concur with not putting any new males in with an established colony. The main reason as to why I posts my method (which works) is because it sounds like you DO want to keep your females together and DO want to introduce a new male. Given that conclusion, following my method allows you to safely be able to do so.

 

[Buzzard]

Honestly, I don't try to figure out the psychology of my mice colonies. They either produce, or they get culled. I keep enough mice in reserve to start colonies at will. When a male is killed off, it's time to replace the colony. When a colony continually cannabalizes, it's time to replace the colony. They are a food source for my snakes. I house them well, I treat them well, I feed them well, but I also consider them food, not pets.

^^^ totally agree^^^^

I am also with Wade if a colony loses a Male it is history. If a female is obviously preggos I have cages set aside to allow them to birth the pinkies and then cull them all. With 12 colonies of mice 4 rats and 2 ASF colonies going, replacing them is no issue.

If you really want to try to add a male. Try to make sure he is bigger than your females, and a really clean cage will help. They will try to bite his nuts off. But a larger male will have a fighting chance. Also if your previous male has knocked up a couple of the females, allowing a young male to grow up in the colony works, usually.

 

[pridecity]

This is why I can't breed my own. I'd end up having to cull all my mice because I messed up and put the male in the wrong container or something. Good luck to the OP for solving this one.

 

[wade]

I can’t remember who it was but years ago someone had a set of rule for raising mice. He would refer to it often. I am paraphrasing it as I remember it.

Rules For Raising Mice:

1—If mother eats babies, feed her off.
2—If mouse bits me, feed them off.
3—If production drops, feed them off.
4—If mice fight with each other, feed them off.
5—If mice jump out of cage, feed them off.
6—If mice won’t eat new food, feed them off.
7—If male mouse dies, feed them off.


There were more, you can add to the list and we’ll make a sticky.

 

[Em Wright]

That's a great idea wade... simple answers to common issues.

Perhaps add something like this...

Mice have specific needs and habits. If you cannot handle providing for their needs and dealing with their habits then raising your colony is not a good idea. It will be better for the mice and yourself if you purchase from an experienced person.

Something to that effect anyway. I dunno. :shrugs: I know I learned that the hard way. I don't like dealing with their quirks (having to cull baddies, etc) and therefore them at all. So I buy mice. Simple.

 

[Tara80]

I do agree.

The one instance that I do cull is when the mom is a baby eater. She is snake food, no question.

 

[Raptor]

I can’t remember who it was but years ago someone had a set of rule for raising mice. He would refer to it often. I am paraphrasing it as I remember it.

Rules For Raising Mice:

1—If mother eats babies, feed her off.
2—If mouse bits me, feed them off.
3—If production drops, feed them off.
4—If mice fight with each other, feed them off.
5—If mice jump out of cage, feed them off.
6—If mice won’t eat new food, feed them off.
7—If male mouse dies, feed them off.


There were more, you can add to the list and we’ll make a sticky.

I have to disagree with 4, 6, and 7.

Mice are going to have tiffs. There's nothing that can be done about it. It's one thing if they're going at it and making each other bloody, but it's entirely different if it's just a quick squabble and they're done. A quick squabble, as far as I'm concerned, grounds for culling.

Mice also aren't going to eat all foods. I read that mazuri was the best thing to feed. I bought a bag and fed it. Not only did I have one generation refuse it, I had several to refuse it. I tried dog food and they love it.

I also have never had issues with my females rejecting a new male. I've pulled one out because I wasn't impressed, put another in..No issues.

Unlike a lot of people, I can't randomly cull when a mouse breaks a rule. I'd end up having to constantly buy new mice. As far as I'm concerned, the only grounds for culling is biting me, eating offspring, and being overly aggressive to tank mates. Otherwise, I've had a nice amount of success.