• Hello!

    Either you have not registered on this site yet, or you are registered but have not logged in. In either case, you will not be able to use the full functionality of this site until you have registered, and then logged in after your registration has been approved.

    Registration is FREE, so please register so you can participate instead of remaining a lurker....

    Please be certain that the location field is correctly filled out when you register. All registrations that appear to be bogus will be rejected. Which means that if your location field does NOT match the actual location of your registration IP address, then your registration will be rejected.

    Sorry about the strictness of this requirement, but it is necessary to block spammers and scammers at the door as much as possible.

Help please with an ID......

CornCrazy said:
Just in case you guys didn't see my update in the thread about the male my girl was bred to, I thought I'd post some partial results here...
Their clutch is hatching and I have proven the following:
  • The female is het amel, is HET hypo, and MUST be a motley-stripe (there's a ghost stripe in the clutch!)
  • The male is het amel
  • There is something weird going on, also! I have BOTH stripes and motleys in the clutch (I think). There is a snow with a totally clear belly in the clutch, so barring both of them being het bloodred (which is unlikely) then I don't know what is going on! Supposedly a snake can't be het for both motley and stripe...unless it is a striped-motley. Obviously this guy is NOT a striped motley because there are babies in the clutch that have checkered bellies. :shrugs:

After all of the babies are out, I will post the rest of the results.
Click to expand...


Sounds to me like each parent is either het for motley, or stripe. Having babies in the clutch with the normal checkered belly has no bearing upon whether or not your snow has a clear belly or being a striped motley.

If motley and stripe are on the same locus as we expect, then it acts like ultra and amel. That's if motley and stripe are in fact two different genes. If they are, then there's no way of being homozygous motley het for striped, or vice versa.
 
Joejr14 said:
Having babies in the clutch with the normal checkered belly has no bearing upon whether or not your snow has a clear belly or being a striped motley.
Click to expand...
The only reason I mentioned that there are babies with checkered bellies and clear bellies is because it PROVES that the male CAN'T be homozygous motley or stripe. If he was homozygous either motley or stripe, there would not be babies with checkered bellies. Supposedly he can't be het for BOTH motley and stripe either...so that's why the clutch is confusing. There are both motleys AND stripes in it!

Apparently, the female HAS to be a striped-motley since there are both in the clutch...even though she LOOKS motley.
 
Last edited:
Okay.

Your female sure looks straight motley. I'd be very surprised if in fact she was a motley stripe.

Your male is not homozygous motley, motley/stripe, or stripe, correct?

If that's the case, he is either het motley or het stripe (obviously).

Now, are the stripes that hatched out full stripes, or are they broken?

My assumption is going to be that your male is het stripe and that you have striped motleys that are just not showing the motley influence. If you look at Rich's striped caramel motleys het butter that he posted pictures of you'll see that a lot of them are almost a perfect stripe.

If you have any updated pics of the 'striped' hatchlings I'd be very curious to see them.
 
Well, obviously the female HAS to be a striped-motley or there shouldn't be any stripes in the clutch.

As far as I know...the male is NOT homozygous motley or stripe and is not a striped motley. Obviously there is something weird about him, though, for him to throw motleys and stripes...thus my question about banded striped-mots. But even that isn't possible since there are babies with checkered bellies in the clutch :shrugs:

The stripes that have hatched appear to be full stripes. As soon as they come out of the eggs, I will be posting full body pictures of them.
 
CornCrazy said:
Well, obviously the female HAS to be a striped-motley or there shouldn't be any stripes in the clutch.
Click to expand...

See, I don't think so. Of course I have no personal experience with this, but I think there have been people who have hatched out what appear to be full stripes out of a motley/stripe pairing.


Well, we know that your male isn't homozygous for motley or stripe or a combo since normal offspring were produced.

I guess now it's figuring out what he's het for, motley or stripe.
 
Full stripes are possible from a motley-stripe x motley-stripe...but I got motleys and full stripes from a motley-stripe x with a het motley OR stripe. That's what makes no sense.

I have NEVER gotten full stripes from a motley x stripe pairing. They usually have a thin stripe down the middle when those two are combined. These have the wide center stripe. Here are some pictures of the ghost stripe:
scmt-2005-035close.jpg

scmt-2005-035a.jpg

scmt-2005-035.jpg
 
But the problem is this:

Since you got normal patterened hatchlings, the male is not homozygous for a combo of motley or stripe.

So, if the female is in fact a motley/stripe (which it doesn't look like) and the male is a het stripe, why are you getting full motley patterns from the pairing.

If the female is a motley/stripe and the male is het motley, why are you getting what appear to be full stripes out of the equation.

See what I'm saying?

You said that the female MUST be a motley/stripe, but that's in itself contradicts the results you're getting. If she is in fact a motley stripe, the male can only be het for motley or stripe, so you shouldn't be getting both full motleys and full stripes.
 
Joejr14 said:
But the problem is this:

Since you got normal patterened hatchlings, the male is not homozygous for a combo of motley or stripe.

So, if the female is in fact a motley/stripe (which it doesn't look like) and the male is a het stripe, why are you getting full motley patterns from the pairing.

If the female is a motley/stripe and the male is het motley, why are you getting what appear to be full stripes out of the equation.

See what I'm saying?

You said that the female MUST be a motley/stripe, but that's in itself contradicts the results you're getting. If she is in fact a motley stripe, the male can only be het for motley or stripe, so you shouldn't be getting both full motleys and full stripes.
Click to expand...
EXACTLY...I keep saying that something <b>weird</b> is going on!

I also keep saying that the female MUST be motley-stripe because of getting both motleys and stripes in the clutch. It's the only thing that makes sense with her. I suspect that something is going on with the male...because nothing makes sense where he is concerned!
 
Susan said:
The term "pastel" does, unfortunately, mean different things to different people, which is why I agree with what Serp has written in his book...always check with the breeder to find out what the BREEDER is defining "pastel" as.

Personally, in the past, I've always considered pastel as being associated with hypo (motley doesn't have to be present). HOWEVER, I've been seeing too many very pink anerys lately to have to exclude them from using the term. I would like to start seeing "pastel" being used to describe ANY qualifying anery, whether they are also homo hypo and/or motley or not, just as long as they are FULLY labeled....pastel anery, pastel ghost, pastel anery motley and pastel ghost motley.

Of these 3 examples from my own collection (a ghost motley, a ghost het motley and an anery motley/stripe het ghost), should 1, 2, all, or none be called "pastel"?
Click to expand...

I absolutely agree with you Susan. Pastels and sunglows can be completely different things depending on who you ask, and its widely accepted to get different answers when questioned. I don't really think there is a right or wrong answer because there are so many depending on who you ask. I agree with Terri when she says that a snake should not just be identified by just its phenotype vs its genotype, but in this situation, (in my opinion) these are both selectively bred variations and thats how I justify that they be identified by their appearance, just like a cancycane or a pink an green snow.

Personally, a sunglow is an amel with no white. It does not have to be homozygous for hypo, although there are a TON of people who would asay otherwise. As stated in the CSM, alot of breeders HAVE used hypo to create the thinner borders, but its not a neccessity. A pastel to me is any snake with anery a genes exhibiting the pastel purple/pink/peach colors. Hypo a does not have to be in there anywhere, but in some cases it does. Unfortunately because there are so many different answers, as Susan said, ask the breeder for sure.
 
Serp, Connie, Carol, Rich, Kathy, CAV, Alexandria...along with Susan you guys have worked with these morphs quite a bit...do you have anything to add? I'd love to hear everyone's side.
 
Just a quick question, has the female ever been bred before? Maybe some of these mysterious results can be explained as a case of retained sperm from last year.
 
I've already been asked that. She was bred last year by a normal motley proven NOT het amel, anery, or hypo. The eggs did terrible and I got no babies from the breeding. The male would not have been able to produce these colors, though, since he was not het any of the "required" ingredients. All of their babies would have been normal mots (striped?) het anery, possible het amel, and hypo.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top