hooded himalayan's?

[rosecat]

so ... a few weeks ago we identified most of my rats as himilayan's and i have since learned a little bit about rat color genetics .... so i went in and was looking at my 4 juve females which are tan hoodeds from a black hooded male x himi female cross and big surprise looks like they are himalayan's too?! So here's some pics... 3 of the 4 females are developing the small nose mask but its more gray/brown that the other himi's i have. I also added the young male that's a himi and has been housed with the girls into a couple pics just for comparison. Let me know what you think they are.

Thanks!
(pics in next post)

 

[rosecat]

more pics coming

 

[rosecat]

... the young adult male when i got him was quite a bit smaller, now he's almost as big as my other 3 males, but when i got him i suppose you'd say he was "medium" rat size. He looked the same then as he does now 'cept in size of course.

 

[LeeC]

To my knowlage, there is no such thing as a hooded himi, or any color variation. Those all look like normal hooded to me, if they were born to a himi, then they are just himi carriers. If you bred 2 of them together you would get 25% himis, 50% carriers, 25% non-carriers. If you bred one of them back to a himi parent, then you should get 50% himi, 25% carriers, 25% non-carriers.
Hope this helps, and I might be wrong... just my guess if himi is a recessive gene.

 

[LeeC]

Wow Im stupid lol. I was thinking of burmese rats, not himi. I could be wrong about the gene's of the himi, but I know those are not himis.



Himalayan
Albino gene and color point gene mask the color and markings of the rat making the rat white with light points

This rat-a/a c/ch or A/- c/ch

RSA"Body color to be white, free from stains and even throughout, with points to be as dark as possible. Eyes red. Note - Color areas: 1. face - not to extend upwards from eyes. 2. ears - not to extend downwards from the base. 3. forelegs - not to extend upwards beyond the elbows. 4. hind legs - not to extend upwards beyond the ankle. 5. tail - not to extend beyond the tail root. 6. feet - to be solid color throughout, devoid of any white."

AFRMA"Body color to be white, free from stains and even throughout. The points to be a rich dark sepia (as dark as possible). Eyes red. Note: Color should not extend past the following areas: 1. Face � not to extend upwards from the eyes. 2. Ears � not to extend downwards from the base. 3. Fore legs � not to extend upwards beyond the elbows. 4. Hind legs � not to extend upwards beyond the ankle. 5. Tail � not to extend more than half way up to the rump. 6. Feet � the color to be solid throughout, devoid of any white. (English N.F.R.S.) Himalayan to be shown only in AOCP class."

RatsPacNW"Himalayan will be of a white base with deep colored points on nose, ears, all four feet, tail base/tail. Faults: white on tips/points; too light of beige; missing points; white markings. Eye color is pink to pale ruby. Faults: white on tips/points; too light of beige (intensity of color); missing points; DQ white markings - blazes; stripes; white feet."

NFRS"Body colour to be white, free from stains and even throughout, with points a rich dark sepia. Eyes red. Note - Colour areas: 1. face - not to extend upwards from eyes. 2. ears - not to extend downwards from the base. 3. forelegs - not to extend upwards beyond the elbows. 4. hind legs - not to extend upwards beyond the ankle. 5. tail - not to extend beyond the tail root. 6. feet - to be solid colour throughout, devoid of any white."

 

[LeeC]

The only thing that points out himi to me is the red eyes. The parents could also be siamese not himi. If they are siamese, those could be hooded siamese (fairly common form of siamese). Sorry if I mislead you.

 

[Flagg]

Well, they're definitely not plain hoodeds. Just look at their faces.

 

[LeeC]

Yeah, im 90% sure now that they're siamese.

 

[toyah]

They're Siamese hoodeds.

Himalayans and Siamese when not colourbred can be difficult to tell apart as adults (Himmies tend to be too dark, and look like pale Siamese - Siamese tend to be too pale and look like dark Himalayans). As babies, they're easy to tell apart - a Himalayan begins as a white rat with pale eyes and then develops points. A Siamese is a beige rat with red eyes that develops points and pales down in the body as they moult into adult fur.

Standards describe the ideal. Ideally, Himalayans, Burmese, and Siamese will all be based on unmarked (self) rats, as breeding in markings means you lose the foot points. But there's no genetic reason why they're not marked, it's simply for show purposes.

A genetic Himalayan is cch (albino + Himalayan alleles). A genetic Siamese is chch (two copies of the himalayan allele). They can be combined with any other colour or marking gene.

 

[rosecat]

So then the young adult male in that pic is a siamese, not a himalayan? I'm confused now.

And as Flagg pointed out and I realized today when i looked at them they are definately NOT plain hoodeds. I owned 2 plain tan hoodeds as pets and these girls have points + hood.

I just wasn't expecting them to develop into hoodeds + points ... makes me glad I didnt get rid of them.

So what is the main difference between siamese and himalayan? can one not have other body markings? or is it just the size of the "mask" and other points?

 

[toyah]

So then the young adult male in that pic is a siamese, not a himalayan? I'm confused now.

Difficult to tell. But was he beige or white as a baby, before he moulted out. Beige baby = Siamese. White baby = Himalayan.

And as Flagg pointed out and I realized today when i looked at them they are definately NOT plain hoodeds. I owned 2 plain tan hoodeds as pets and these girls have points + hood.

They are hooded Siamese. Siamese is the colour ... hooded is the marking.

So what is the main difference between siamese and himalayan? can one not have other body markings? or is it just the size of the "mask" and other points?

Ideally, a Siamese will be medium beige, no white on him at all, shading into extensive deep seal points. A Himalayan will be pure white, with the points being restricted right to the extremities. But without selective colourbreeding, most Himmies and Siamese fall into an "inbetween" area between those two extremes.

 

[diamondlil]

Isn't the development of the points also temperature dependent?Cooler temps making the points more concentrated, warmer making it less defined?

 

[toyah]

To a degree - this is why the points are on the extremities, because that's where the animal is cooler. Pointed rats kept in sheds/outbuildings tend to be slightly darker overall, and pointed rats kept inside tend to be slightly paler overall. But as a whole, the depth of points are more influenced by genetics than outside temperature.

 

[diamondlil]

Thanks Toyah, just did an internet trawl to see if I'd got it right (Used to have seal-point himmie guineapigs)

 

[rosecat]

Well all of the adult siamese are definately beige not white bodied. The hooded juves i thnk are (were) more beige than white, i didn't have the young adult male when he was small enough to know what color he was as a baby -- he had his adult coat when i got him.

 

[rosecat]

I just looked good at the females again, and it looks like their hoods are starting to fade now. I will take pics in the next few days so we can compare. Apparently my rats are special.

 

[ratsncorns]

I have bred siamese before. All of mine have started out with marks/hoods and as they molt in their adult coat, all of their markings/hoods completely fade out and disappear and you can only see their siamese markings. So your rats are not unusual. Most siamese start out like yours and just develop their points later (with the rest of their markings disappearing). Here is a picture of my Siamese girl, she actually started out a beige hoodie with a headspot:

 

[rosecat]

Thanks! Its good to know mine aren't completely strange. I'll still post pics again, just in case anyone wants to see for future reference or whatever.

~Rosecat

 

[rosecat]

okay here's some pics of the girls taken today

Also there are 2 pics of my new black (berkshire?) dumbo female. the next post has a couple of pics of the black (berkshire?) dumbo male.

 

[rosecat]

the male

also note these new pics are all with my new rebel xti