How do you feel about God.

[knox]

So are you telling me that the *only* reason you won't go out and murder and eat a human baby is because a God told you not to? That's kind of scary, you know?

"And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.”"

A. That's a little condescending, don't you think? The common grace God gives ALL men and women clearly states that is wrong. Come on, be a little more mature...

B. The verse was fulfilled as promised. They saw the kingdom of God in power when they witnessed the Transfiguration, when they saw the true glory of the Christ.

What you fail to understand is that the kingdom of God is the universe itself, and the power was revealed to them when they were allowed to get a glimpse of it in the glory and power of Christ.

The kingdom of God is not Heaven. That is simply where His throne is. He owns all, He sees all, He is in all. Creation is His from the beginning to the end.

I will not answer anything further. Rather than asking sincere questions, the Christian faith has been ridiculed. Though I am not offended - as it always expected - I tire of the same old jests and jabs.

Happy Thanksgiving, guys! I will see you in the other threads!

 

[Shiari]

A. That's a little condescending, don't you think? The common grace God gives ALL men and women clearly states that is wrong. Come on, be a little more mature...

And asking what keeps an atheist from doing something similar isn't? You didn't think it made us sound like boogey-men?

B. The verse was fulfilled as promised. They saw the kingdom of God in power when they witnessed the Transfiguration, when they saw the true glory of the Christ.

And yet... all those christians out there who believe this verse is one of those that indicates a rapture in *their* lifetime...

 

[Camby]

So are you telling me that the *only* reason you won't go out and murder and eat a human baby is because a God told you not to? That's kind of scary, you know?

So you are telling us that *only* thing that pevents us from doing wrong is logical thought? Thereby, that would suggest you believe all wrong doing is a mental default of sorts. That's kind of scary, you know?

Of course that is not what you are suggesting, but you seem to try and paint people into corners and force them to come out fighting. I have to belive you are a logical person and you know darned well by reading all his posts that he doesn't feel that is the *only* reason he doesn't eat babies. In the words of Charlie Brown or better, Charles Shultz, "Good Grief". He has stated, very politely, on numerous occasions that he feels people make their own decisions but for a Christian, they utilize the teachings of Christ as a basis for their moral code.

Jesuits do not believe in Hell, but they still utilize the teachings of God to direct their moral code. Same thing applies there, God isn't the only thing stopping from eating babies (really, what a terrible thought to inject into what has been a great discussion).

It is no secret to this forum, I am a Christian, but I believe in evolution to a point, surely not Darwanism, but evolution none the less. I also struggle greatly in my relationship with God. We argue all the time because of what I feel is me being crapped on alot when deep down I am a good person and human being and more importantly a great Father and Husband. My belief is that God wants a relationship with us and that we try to live a "Godly" life. I am not sure what Hell or Heaven will be like or if I will make it to Heaven, but I think there is some sort of life after.

I also want to commend Tara on her posts, I am not sure if she is a Christian or not, but I think alot like her. I joke around alot on here that I am not smart and an idiot, but the fact is that I am not quiet as dumb as I make out. Call me dumb or enlightened or intelligent, I could care less, but when I walk outside, I can't help but believe there is a higher power who has a "hand" in all this. My Daughter is my first born. In my eyes there is no way that the planets all aligned, teh wind blew the right way, the temperature was just right, my boy new all the right place to go, the egg was ovulated at the right time and all that other nonesense without something helping.

People have insinuated to me and other Christians that we are niave or weak because we believe the way we do, but I think the same, it would be naive to think this all happened like some great coincidence that started a never ending chain of coincidences.

This will be all I post on here, I have answered the original posters question and I do applaud the majority of the people who have participated in this thread for remaining civil and open minded. I would request that the others (you know who you are) not be so condescending and holier than though (no pun intended).

Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving to all

Daryl Camby

 

[Camby]

Sorry, I was writing my post when the last 4 came in. I was a little late to the show I guess.

Way to go Shiari, nice to have kept it really civil like everyone else was doing. I guess while I was writing the "make people come out fighting" portion, it was coming to fruition eh?

I may get demerits for this but if so ah well. For a change I thought a thread was going to be kept civil. I guess I was dumb for thinking that. Don't get me wrong, I typically come off as an Ahole even when I am not trying to and many times when I am, but I bow to your superior abilities to offend and in general, just appear to genuinely dislike anyone who does not agree with you. Congratulations, you'll get the last word.

dc

 

[Shiari]

Did you know... there are honestly people out there who DO believe that the ONLY reason why human beings don't go around murdering each other is because of a god? I took a super extreme example, yes, and that was not the best approach. But when faced with questions such as "how do you know not to do bad", it worries me that people are *sincere* about it. They have to ask how come I know things like murder and stealing are bad because no sky-father is telling me so? Do they think so little of me and the subset of people I fall into?

Atheists are one of the most distrusted and disliked groups of people. We've been told that we are traitors. That we shouldn't be considered citizens of the united states. I hate religion topics. I do really poorly about keeping out of them once they start because I see so much misinformation spewed about and it makes me itchy and irritable. Not because a god is saying "You should re-convert!", but because I see these otherwise so intelligent people whom I respect so much walking into walls. I see the teaching of utter self-loathing one must internalise to fall for "original sin" and it makes me angry on THEIR behalf. What a horrible way to feel!

And I also see what religion in the extremes can and has done. How many of you have heard of the Quiverful movement? How about the Pearl's book, To Train up a Child. I'm sure some of you have heard of that book... it's been connected with several starvation/beating deaths of children in the past few months.

Go look up what religion can cause people to do in their name of their gods.

http://nolongerquivering.com/

 

[possum_minister]

Sorry folks, but im with Shiari on this one. someone said earlier that she was being out of line but i just can't see it. she has said nothing more horrible or detestful than some of the stories ive read in the bible. the story of job, for example. a godly man whose life was made into a living hell all because god and the devil made a bet like his life was a poker game. the story of sodom and gomorrah, where the only godly man in town gave up his virgin daughters for the masses to rape so they would leave the visiting angels alone. these are terrible stories about human suffering brought about by god.

nothing she has said thus far could even rival these stories. i think she has made some very valid points. it seems to me that its just the vernacular thats the problem, not the subject material.

Psalm 137: 8-9
O Daughter of Babylon, doomed to destruction, happy is he who repays you for what you have done to us--- he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.

i dont care whose infant it is, you do not dash them against rocks.

 

[Tara80]

Religion can be used as a weapon, just like anything else people can use to manipulate to take advantage of others. It is irrelevant reasoning to utilize this as a reason why people 'shouldn't believe'.

If people are making factually incorrect statements, it's one thing Shiari, but I really wish you'd stop putting down other people's beliefs because it is not what you believe.
And you sure get pretty involved, heatedly, for someone who doesn't like the topic.

Note: I never said she's out of line, a better way of putting it is she's more condescending then most and very forcefully opinionated. That's different. I'm looking at it from a middle of the road perspective. I love science and am always searching for proof/reasoning/facts for anything, one way or another - so I'm not standing on either side of the fence. I'd say the same thing to someone who's being forceful in any respect about their belief and talking others down who don't believe in it.

Let me put it this way - There's a difference in saying "I believe this, for this reason" and then saying "Those who believe 'this' don't know what they're talking about for this reason...".

 

[Nanci]

Can't rep Knox again. I want to say that you inspire me.

 

[Camby]

Can't rep Knox again. I want to say that you inspire me.

Already took care of it. Think of it as from us both then.

 

[possum_minister]

people seem to misunderstand the difference between someone putting down someone elses beliefs, and just stating their beliefs firmly or passionately. and it all depends on what side of the fence youre on. what an atheist might say, and believe passionately, might be offensive to a christian. and what a christian might say, and believe passionately, might be offensive to an atheist. so where is the middle ground? can either of us say anything that won't offend the other party? and how are we to know what will offend someone? are we all to just keep our mouths shut and live in little bubbles? i dont think so.

we all have ways of expressing our beliefs, and to say that someones was out of line in trying to express their belief in the best way that they knew how is just another way of saying i'm right and you're wrong because i didnt like your delivery of the subject matter.

i do agree on one aspect though. religion is a weapon. its probably the most effective weapon that mankind has ever seen. religion has been used to kill more people in this world than all the guns, disease, and nuclear weapons could even dream about killing.

 

[AliCat37]

Evolution does not explain how something came from nothing. How we exist.

It actually can, this is what I was mentioning earlier, about the start of life and the way it coincides with the bible with Adam being created from God's rib and clay. If we break down the structure of life, we get nucleotides- these are naturally found all over the place in fragments. The real trouble is how did they all come together. There is a type of clay that seems to attract these to it and bind them to each other, creating simple, microscopic life forms. Now, I do find it FASCINATING that ancient people knew this and wrote of it into the Bible. Many believe that God created us, and perhaps he did. But I think it is far more likely that we naturally evolved on our planet, and as we progressed, an intelligent being or beings, interfered with our DNA to produce humans as we know them, I also believe that the Bible illustrates this very well with God and Angels. Perhaps this intelligent being told us of how everything took place naturally, and the young human beings interpreted this as them or it creating us. I should however say, that I am always very moved when meeting people who so passionately believe in God- It's very powerful, and I respect anyone who does believe. I also respect those that do not. And back to the morals of what is right and wrong, it again comes down to personal morals. Most of us believe that genocide, murder, rape, etc are wrong, but those that do them do not feel it is- so it is right, in their minds. Even if we may not agree. For example, I do not hunt, and I don't think it is morally ethical to EVER kill a predator- yet people do it all the time and say that is it right. Another point mentioned (i'm not sure if it was covered yet, as I skipped a few pages) is that evolution is a change of alleles- this is true. BUT the example of corn morphs is an example of microevolution, not macroevolution, or the leading to new species. I do believe in evolution, and I can say it's fully believable through the work scientists have done on chickens. They have gone in and manually turned off and on alleles, producing chicks with claws and even teeth. It is not difficult for me to fathom that over billions of years, certain adaptations were passed along to many members of a species that helped them survive in their environments- leading to genetic diversity and new species.

 

[Tara80]

By something coming from nothing, I mean how anything... atoms, quarks, neutrinos.. exist to begin with. I've spent a lot of time reading and studying on this issue and NO one can yet begin to tap the surface of this issue. It's been thought to be broken down to particle spin, but even that doesn't explain it (yet anyway).

As for taking offense. Again that's not what I was even addressing. My point was the way certain topics are being addressed. Essentially calling people 'stupid' for their beliefs, just not in such terms. It's one thing to say you believe in something but something else completely to say you think someone is of lesser intellect for believing in something different; especially when there is absolutely no evidence for either side of the road, just how we apply existing aspects to our own beliefs.

 

[Holly12]

Ya know alot of people want to say Iam so into God and I am a christian and yet they go and do very bad crimes but they are with God please give me a break here. If you are going to go around and say hey Iam a christian and I belive in the higher power then don't go and commit crimes. I hate it when people do that and it is like why even bother going to church or believing in god if you like hurting others?. Can anyone help me here to understand this? because it makes no sense to me at all.

 

[Allalaskan]

There is a Difference between being a Christian, and being religious. A christian actually does what the bible says and do it with all their heart. Religion is just using it as a shield or weapon for for their own purposes. Do not confuse true christians for some one who is simply just religious.

I think thats about all I will say in this thread, as it seems that every one is ready to go after the throat, but that was something I did want to say.

 

[Tara80]

I honestly LOVE to read people's aspects, thoughts and beliefs on here and the reasons why!!! I'm sorry for picking, I don't mean to and rarely do it but I'd love to just see this debate stay civil; where people are talking politely to each other in a debate frame of mind.

 

[jackrat]

Remember,all of the gods we consider false,were once true. The Christian Bible is words. Nothing more,nothing less. Just like all the other other Bibles. Just a book ,written by humans,a very long time ago,when people were walking around crapping on the ground. Where would your beliefs be without this collection of words?

 

[Shiari]

I'm sorry, but I'm going to be passionate if what I'm reading is basically that I am doomed to eternal torture because I pissed off an invisible being. Not just an invisible being, but an omnipotent and omniscient being. And not just doomed, but *deserving* of the most horrific pain for all eternity. Can you not see why being told I *deserve* that, even obliquely, is going to ruffle my feathers and make me write in defense?

By the by, if God is omniscient that means he already knows if I'm going to hell or not, which means if I am doomed to hell it wasn't very nice for him to allow me to be born. And why hell? Why not destruction? If one must punish, it is surely kinder to remove from being than *torture*.

 

[Forcedexile]

Confirmed Atheist here, but if someone is telling me about their religion or talking about their religion i'm not going to be a jerk, interrupt them and say, "whoa hold on there i'm atheist." Personally the religion I like the most is the Mormons, or the church of the latter day saints. whichever you want to call it. the ones that walk around going up to people's doors and trying to spread their religion. I actually studied their religion for a short period of time because my girlfriend at the time was one of them and i was curious. was kind of fun. but i digress.

I know this is a bad comparison but i think its kind of like choosing your favorite pizza place. sure there are plenty of good ones but we all have that one place we know of that has the best pizza and everyone has their own. i'm not going to start telling people that their pizza sucks or that their religion is wrong and i would hope that i'm extended the same courtesy.

 

[possum_minister]

By something coming from nothing, I mean how anything... atoms, quarks, neutrinos.. exist to begin with. I've spent a lot of time reading and studying on this issue and NO one can yet begin to tap the surface of this issue. It's been thought to be broken down to particle spin, but even that doesn't explain it (yet anyway).

As for taking offense. Again that's not what I was even addressing. My point was the way certain topics are being addressed. Essentially calling people 'stupid' for their beliefs, just not in such terms. It's one thing to say you believe in something but something else completely to say you think someone is of lesser intellect for believing in something different; especially when there is absolutely no evidence for either side of the road, just how we apply existing aspects to our own beliefs.

whay does it matter how something came into existence. it exists now. atoms have been proven to exist, its the whole basis of chemistry. denying the existence of atoms is like denying the existence of gravity.

however god has not been proven to exist. period. his existence is purely based on an old book written a thousands of years ago. there is no evidence to suggest that he is real. there is no evidence that he has ever been real, and no evidence that he will ever be real.

superstition is a powerful thing. thats why the salem witch trials occured.

there has never been a war over atheism. has never been thousands of innocents killed in the name of atheism. atheism never causes any major problems like genocide. religion cannot say that. ppl have died and will continue to die for the religion they believe in and the religions they dont believe in.

if there were no religion there wouldnt have been an inquisition, a holocaust, a 9-11. all of these tragedies could have been averted if there were not any "gods". but it never fails that somebody says that it must have been "gods will". that is not a god i would want to worship.

 

[possum_minister]

I'm sorry, but I'm going to be passionate if what I'm reading is basically that I am doomed to eternal torture because I pissed off an invisible being. Not just an invisible being, but an omnipotent and omniscient being. And not just doomed, but *deserving* of the most horrific pain for all eternity. Can you not see why being told I *deserve* that, even obliquely, is going to ruffle my feathers and make me write in defense?

By the by, if God is omniscient that means he already knows if I'm going to hell or not, which means if I am doomed to hell it wasn't very nice for him to allow me to be born. And why hell? Why not destruction? If one must punish, it is surely kinder to remove from being that *torture*.

you took the words right out of my mouth shiari. i am in total agreement.