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How pure must a corn be to be truely pure?

hikisquid said:
Ooh, I learned something new!
I remember being on a camping trip as a teen and seeing a black ratsnake in the water, and then when hiking the next day I found a pretty cornsnake guarding a nest, always wondered if the rat was the daddy. XD

Are intergrades considered "hybrids" in the pure/hybrid debate then?
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A quote answered with a quote from page #1, post #5....

HerpsOfNM said:
Hybrid, in the terms of biological speciation, is roughly defined as 2 distinct species interbreeding.

This can be further defined as intra- and interspecific hybridization. Intraspecific deals with crosses between subspecies, with the field herping community calling these crosses intergrades. Interspecific details crosses within the same genus, but between different species, e.g., ultras and sunkissed animals.

Then there is intergeneric where hybridization occurs between 2 different species from a different genus, e.g., jungle corns.

Additional fun terms found within any college evolution class, within the portion ofclass that covers genetics and speciation:

Species (can be rather tough to define)
Allopatric speciation
Sympatric speciation
Niche
Reproductive barrier(s)

Your questions are, in my opinion, on par with a semester long lecture/discussion/argument of a course called evolution. Your suggestion of re-terming/defining hybrid, would big picture encompass what "scientists" do at the taxonomic level of sinking, elevating, lumping, or clumping various species and/or subspecies. Like the sinking of the intermontane ratsnake (Pantherophis emoryi intermontana), which IIRC is genetically isolated and the elevation of great plains ratsnake out of guttata and to full species status.

As commenters have sniped...this thread could go round and round and round. I'll need some reese's pieces, twizlers, and a large Mr.Pibb for my popcorn.
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Oh, thanks for that! I honestly didn't reread this thread when I went to post, so I totally forgot that it had been answered before.
 
ChannyB said:
How about you show me evidence that it does not?
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That's like asking me to prove Aliens don't exist. That's easy. Ever seen one? ;)

I've herped over area's in MD that have rat snakes and eastern Kings. Never seen a Rat/King cross. Seen lots of rats and kings tho. Been around lots of bodies of water where eastern garters and northern water snakes lived side by side. Never saw anything but eastern garters and northern waters. Not going to say under some extremely unusual circumstance it doesn't happen in the wild, but in the "pet community" there's nothing "natural" in anything that has to do with with creating crosses, or even keeping a w/c snake. We "create", whether it be a "habitat a snake can live in and thrive or a sinacalihondocorn hybrid :)

And I don't what ANY of this has to do with religion :shrugs:
 
ChannyB said:
Pretty sure you have to be a disgusting bastard for that to NOT hit a nerve.

How could you even begin to compare the two?
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This will NOT be tolerated here! I suggest all involved step back and breathe and then let things calm down.
 
BloodyBaroness said:
LOL!

Personally, I'm cosmically okay with intergrades, as they can occur in nature. I am not cosmically okay with hybrids that are forced by humans.



I always do. :cheers: That reminds me I need to get a powerball ticket for tonight.
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Truthfully, I don't mind intergrades or hybrids. I just don't really care for unsound logic (and I am NOT saying that your logic in the quote above is unsound Autumn, it's more your opinon on what you are personally okay with). To me breeding for morphs is pretty close to the same as breeding hybrids and/or intergrades. When was the last time a cornsnake saw another cornsnake and asked, "Are you het for amel, lavender and stripe?" Here we have man (and lotsa womans too) doing the selecting instead of nature. With hybrids it's usually just not as easy to get the critters to go along with it. There isn't really anything natural about keeping cornsnakes in captivity, so I am of the opinon that as long as we aren't abusing them, they should be kept for our enjoyment. If your enjoyment means keeping a "pure" cornsnake, then by all means, keep a "pure" cornsnake. If you enjoy keeping a hybrid cornsnake, then by all means seek out the one that looks according to your pleasure. Just don't lie about it to others

and Autumn

I get half of your winnings!
 
gelshark said:
Truthfully, I don't mind intergrades or hybrids. I just don't really care for unsound logic (and I am NOT saying that your logic in the quote above is unsound Autumn, it's more your opinon on what you are personally okay with). To me breeding for morphs is pretty close to the same as breeding hybrids and/or intergrades. When was the last time a cornsnake saw another cornsnake and asked, "Are you het for amel, lavender and stripe?" Here we have man (and lotsa womans too) doing the selecting instead of nature. With hybrids it's usually just not as easy to get the critters to go along with it. There isn't really anything natural about keeping cornsnakes in captivity, so I am of the opinon that as long as we aren't abusing them, they should be kept for our enjoyment. If your enjoyment means keeping a "pure" cornsnake, then by all means, keep a "pure" cornsnake. If you enjoy keeping a hybrid cornsnake, then by all means seek out the one that looks according to your pleasure. Just don't lie about it to others

and Autumn

I get half of your winnings!
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I agree full on, but also...

you get nothing.

Plus I don't keep corn snakes. ;) I keep scaled rocks that go by very pedestrian name of "ball pythons" in the common vernacular.

Cosmically.
 
Ah yeah. I have a pretty snake, and I don't really care what he was bred from, because he's just a pet and not for breeding. I've seen some beautiful hybrids that I'd love to own, and some pure corns too. As long as it's known what went into them it shouldn't be a big deal at all. XD
 
chris68 said:
That's like asking me to prove Aliens don't exist. That's easy. Ever seen one? ;)

I've herped over area's in MD that have rat snakes and eastern Kings. Never seen a Rat/King cross. Seen lots of rats and kings tho. Been around lots of bodies of water where eastern garters and northern water snakes lived side by side. Never saw anything but eastern garters and northern waters. Not going to say under some extremely unusual circumstance it doesn't happen in the wild, but in the "pet community" there's nothing "natural" in anything that has to do with with creating crosses, or even keeping a w/c snake. We "create", whether it be a "habitat a snake can live in and thrive or a sinacalihondocorn hybrid :)

And I don't what ANY of this has to do with religion :shrugs:
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Asking someone to prove Aliens exist, gods exist, or hybrids exist in nature all fall into a similar type argument as trying to prove unicorns, vampires, werewolves, or pixies exist. A lot is dependent on how we define a given term and what we are willing to accept as proof that something exists. With that said, an absence of proof for something does not mean that something does not infact exist or has not existed in the past. It is simply an absence of proof. Whether you agree with man made hybrids or not, the facts do exist that man has been making hybrids of both plants and animals for quite some time.

The Nephilim were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time 6:4-5 Genesis NIV

Hybrids are definitely mentioned as the above quote shows in the bible. Hercules was a half human half god. So, the question remains, do religious views on hybrids affect how we view hybrids?
 
Carpe Serpentis said:
The Nephilim were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown.5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time 6:4-5 Genesis NIV
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This has nothing to do with anything.

Why do you keep bringing religion into something where religion is not part of the subject matter at hand? If I want to be to preached to, I'll go to church, not a corn snake forum.
 
BloodyBaroness said:
This has nothing to do with anything.

Why do you keep bringing religion into something where religion is not part of the subject matter at hand? If I want to be to preached to, I'll go to church, not a corn snake forum.
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I'm definitely not trying to preach to you. I'm an atheist so, preaching is definitely not my thing. I do try to keep an open mind however and I do try to look at things logically. Where do we get our ethics of what it is okay to breed and what it is not okay to breed with? How do we ethically decide if a snake is pure and how do we define pure? These are all questions tackled with by many free thinkers, religious, etc. To be honest though, while I am always interested in these matters and intelligent conversation along these lines... sorry if my inquiry upset you. I'm sorry if I believe some people get their ethics, morales, etc. in part from their religious doctrine and that this may or may not play a role in how some people view what is pure, what is right, etc.
 
Religion has nothing to do with whether something is a hybrid or not. Different religions may have views on hybrids, but that has no bearing on if something is, or is not a hybrid, or when it has been outcrossed enough to be considered pure again.

Ethics are not a deciding factor, nor are morales.

This goes back to the science and genetics. How many times does something have to be bred back to remove all traces of the cross. Or what kind of genetic data are we looking for to call it "pure" to start with.

This is not lofty ideals, it's simple straightforward data.
 
The one-drop rule strengthened segragation from 1890-1910 approx. This rule attempted was amended by various states and some concluded that one-thirtysecond was equivalent to one drop of blood. Segragation and slavery had roots in America tied into the bible and literature at the time supported by the bible. So, yes, religion does sometimes play a role in what we consider to be acceptable purity. Numbers and percentages are all well in good, but as hybrids in the snake world are fertile one can assume that they are all recently enough evolved from one another to have shared a common ancestor allowing for this mixing to still occur. Again, how do we decide when something is sufficiently and evolutionarily split to warrant saying it is a pure species? What is pure? It may seem like straightforward data, but in the end it is just a human construct that we use when we define a species as being separate from another species for purposes that are only valid to us as a human species. A snake does not give a hoot what species we classify it as or whether we rule it is a pure species or not. Species is a human construct that even humans do not always agree on.
 
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