How the heck did this happen?!?

[pgr8dnlvr]

Well, I bred two sunglow motleys together. What should I get? Sunglow motleys right?!? Nope, first one arrived today. Unfortunately the others are hanging back and haven't pipped yet...










What the heck is going on?!?! I've been trying to understand the interactions of the motley/stripe allele, but holy smokes! What confusion! I talked to major breeders asking OPINIONS on if you mix motley with stripe can you ever really pull out a nice stripe with no motley influence that breeds true. Two out of three said definitely no, the other, possible yes, but certainly not difinitively.

So what does this all mean? Should I call the parents sunglow motleys het stripe? Will this little one breed true with the sunglow stripe baby I have from Soderberg lines? Is this an anomoly?

Also, here is a poll type question. Do you think a sunglow stripe or motley can truly be called a sunglow if hypo is not proven to be involved?

Can anyone show me an amelanistic sunglow that has any white on it? Doesn't this mean that all amel stirpes and mots could TECHNICALLY be called a sunglow?

PLEASE ANYONE RESPOND TO SOME OF THESE QUESTIONS!!

Here are the pictures!

 

[png_lovebirds]

I have no answers for you...but just wanted to say that you have a beautiful hatchling!! How gorgeous!!

 

[toyah]

What the heck is going on?!?! I've been trying to understand the interactions of the motley/stripe allele, but holy smokes! What confusion! I talked to major breeders asking OPINIONS on if you mix motley with stripe can you ever really pull out a nice stripe with no motley influence that breeds true. Two out of three said definitely no, the other, possible yes, but certainly not difinitively.

Well, you've proved which one of the three you need to listen to! Congratulations on proving your motleys as het stripe.

Also, here is a poll type question. Do you think a sunglow stripe or motley can truly be called a sunglow if hypo is not proven to be involved?

Can anyone show me an amelanistic sunglow that has any white on it? Doesn't this mean that all amel stirpes and mots could TECHNICALLY be called a sunglow?

Sunglow isn't just lack of white - it should also indicate incredibly vibrant reds and oranges.

Kathy has an excellent photo of a sunglow on her site: http://www.corn-utopia.com/Corn Uto... Stockpile - CornUtopia/SUNGLOW - CAPTION.jpg

Personally I don't care if hypo is involved or not, but a sunglow should be vibrant like Kathy's snake ... wishy-washy orange with no white just ain't a sunglow to me!

 

[Stephen29]

Well, I bred two sunglow motleys together. What should I get? Sunglow motleys right?!? Nope, first one arrived today. Unfortunately the others are hanging back and haven't pipped yet...










What the heck is going on?!?! I've been trying to understand the interactions of the motley/stripe allele, but holy smokes! What confusion! I talked to major breeders asking OPINIONS on if you mix motley with stripe can you ever really pull out a nice stripe with no motley influence that breeds true. Two out of three said definitely no, the other, possible yes, but certainly not difinitively.

So what does this all mean? Should I call the parents sunglow motleys het stripe? Will this little one breed true with the sunglow stripe baby I have from Soderberg lines? Is this an anomoly? Also, here is a poll type question. Do you think a sunglow stripe or motley can truly be called a sunglow if hypo is not proven to be involved?

Can anyone show me an amelanistic sunglow that has any white on it? Doesn't this mean that all amel stirpes and mots could TECHNICALLY be called a sunglow?

PLEASE ANYONE RESPOND TO SOME OF THESE QUESTIONS!!

Here are the pictures!

Not sure If this is an anomoly or not. But it's worth a shot breeding it with your Sunglow Stripe. If stripes are what your after, it looks like that little one has some good " stock" to work with. Congratulations !!

 

[pgr8dnlvr]

Well, to be honest, the parents were purchased sight unseen, I really wasn't to impressed when they weren't quite as bright as I wanted. I figured I'd breed and work with them though, until I could find what I REALLY wanted. I guess my next step is to test each for hypo. I just don't think they should be called sunglow if they aren't homo hypo...

Well thanks guys, and PLEASE more comments and suggestions!!

Rebecca

 

[bribrian]

Yep, your parents are certainly motley het stripe. Recovering perfect stripes from mot het stripe parents has been done, i remember Joe Pierce writing a piece on it in his personal forum.....
Congrats, nice little hatchling too.......

 

[Drizzt80]

As far as I'm concerned, and have always believed, Sunglow indicates an Amel lacking white. Hypo does not need to be included, but I believe muddies the history as it has been included in some characterizations of Sunglow. Motley and Stripes tend to have severely reduced amounts of white and are therefore almost by definition automatically Sunglows. :shrugs:

As for pulling a perfect Stripe out of het parents . . . Why not?? What would be so impossible about it? People breed Candy Canes to get that perfect Candy Cane . . . which isn't even genetic other than being Amel!!!

D80

 

[desertanimal]

People breed Candy Canes to get that perfect Candy Cane . . . which isn't even genetic!!!

D80

It's very likely at least partially genetic, just not Mendelian.

 

[Drizzt80]

It's very likely at least partially genetic, just not Mendelian.

I added "other than being Amel." to the sentence. Thanks for pointing that out. It's obviously genetic and I meant along the lines Mendelian/recessive single trait type genetics. Doh!

D80

 

[Joejr14]

I'm confused at the confusion....

If mots are producing stripes, they're obviously het for stripe.

And this has been hashed out before, but what in the heck does hypo have to do with being a sunglow?

 

[desertanimal]

I knew you knew the difference, I just had to point it out because lots of people probably don't know.

Lots of things are genetic; we just dabble in the fairly limited number of things that are inherited in a Mendelian fashion. But in my line of work (as a teacher of physical anthropology), I find that people start to think that all traits are either inherited in a Mendelian fashion, or are not genetically controlled at all, which is not at all true, so I felt compelled to be precise about it.

Candy-caneness is likely something akin to (non-tanned) human skin color or eye color or hair color. There's clearly a genetic component because you can selectively breed for it, but it's a polygenic trait, making it difficult to predict when and how it will be manifest, since we don't know the multiple genes that are probably involved and how they interact in producing the trait of interest.

 

[TandJ]

Also, here is a poll type question. Do you think a sunglow stripe or motley can truly be called a sunglow if hypo is not proven to be involved?

Can anyone show me an amelanistic sunglow that has any white on it? Doesn't this mean that all amel stirpes and mots could TECHNICALLY be called a sunglow?

PLEASE ANYONE RESPOND TO SOME OF THESE QUESTIONS!!

As mentioned, hypo might have something to do with sunglow.. But knowing that amel masks hypo, I don't think it is a nesscessary ingrediant to producing sunglos.. My understanding of the definition of sunglo is the intensity of the colouration of the animal..

IE... I don;t consider this guy a sunglo, because his colouration is not so intense, I write him off as just a vanishing stripe amel..

This girl I feel meets my standards for my qaulifications of a sunglow... Her colours are quite vivid and intense...

Where as this motley girl, I would be nutty thinking she is remotely a sunglo.. Although some people might consider her a sunglo because it meets their definition...

Regards.. Tim of T and J

 

[pgr8dnlvr]

Thankyou Tim, I very much value your input and the pictures are fantastic. I really think I must agree with the way you class your sunglows. It's too bad that my two on right on the middle of the fence for me, sometimes I feel like calling them sunglow, sometimes I don't! lol! They are pretty intense I guess, bah, see how I feel later!

Rebecca

 

[El Jefe]

What else hatched out?

And I hate the name sunglow...whether it has hypo or not. Too confusing and too many people call pretty animals sunglow....white ones, non-white ones, hypo ones, motley ones, stripe ones...etc.... In fact, not sure I've ever labeled a corn around here as a sunglow.

 

[Drizzt80]

In fact, not sure I've ever labeled a corn around here as a sunglow.

Now that I think about, me either!? I know what they are often designated as, and what I think they should be, but I don't believe I've ever called one of my particular specimens a Sunglow before . . . just "plain old" amel as far as I'm concerned!

Timmah, I'd probably agree with your classification system as per the pictures you posted. The top snake is HOT, the middle one could go either way as there's no white, but it is intriguing and "softer", the bottom one has way too much white.

D80

 

[kathylove]

I agree that the sunglow name when combined with motleys or stripes is pretty confusing, because of the fact that those patterns often lack white anyway. When I do sell them, I try to reserve the sunglow motley or stripe name for the amels with the most intense colors. But as mentioned, some are "on the fence" and could go either way. Of course, that is also true for candycanes, alb. okeetees, and other selectively bred traits as well.

I have never used hypo as an intrinsic ingredient in my sunglows, motley or otherwise. Don S. USED to, but I believe he has written that it is not necessarily the case anymore. I have read old threads about those discussions - you can look them up if you like to see exactly what he said. It was a long time ago.

I have occasionally thrown a really nice stripe from mots, het stripe. But more often it is the "motley stripe" that is broken, and uneven in width. But it seems like anything is possible with motley stripe combos. You just don't usually hit the "perfect stripe jackpot" too often, in my experience.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I have occasionally thrown a really nice stripe from mots, het stripe. But more often it is the "motley stripe" that is broken, and uneven in width. But it seems like anything is possible with motley stripe combos. You just don't usually hit the "perfect stripe jackpot" too often, in my experience.

If you breed a pair of Motley het Stripes you will. Genetically, Motley het Stripe is actually het for Motley and Stripe (Motley & Stripe sit on the same Allele)...But Motley is expressed of the two. It's very possible in the offspring of such a pairing to have two copies of just Stripe rather then a copy of each (Motley and Stripe). I've frequently produced "pure" Stripes from Motley het Stripes (though I've nixed Motley completely from my colonies now)...It just takes experience to identify them properly compared to their Motley het Stripe siblings who look darn close to an actual Stripe.

 

[kathylove]

Yes, it is the "luck of the draw". I have not had many breedings with mots, het stripe, and those seldom (but sometimes) yielded nice stripes. Had I done more breedings like that, I am sure I would have gotten more decent stripes.

 

[pgr8dnlvr]

What else hatched out?

And I hate the name sunglow...whether it has hypo or not. Too confusing and too many people call pretty animals sunglow....white ones, non-white ones, hypo ones, motley ones, stripe ones...etc.... In fact, not sure I've ever labeled a corn around here as a sunglow.

So far only one more has fully hatched, five others are peeking noses, but not ready to fully emerge yet. The one that has finally said hello to the world is a look alike to the parents. What I was EXPECTING! lol!

You know, I really wonder if I should just call them all amel mots too... what a choice.... arg!

 

[pgr8dnlvr]

Thanks so much for your replies Kathy! I'm glad that I'm not too far off base and it seems that my undestandings, <previous and now> seem to coincide with yours! I was surprised though that you didn't necessarily follow the "hypo rule" with your sunglows!

From your experience, from the pictures of the parents above <I know a picture can be decieving> would you call the parents amel mots or "sunglow mots"?

Rebecca