How to increase feeding...?

[EGallup628]

Hi there! I'm a (very) new snake owner and in early August picked up my first baby corn snake (SO excited - I'm in my 30's and have wanted a snake since I was a kid!). He seems to be a great eater - no problems at all in that area and it seems to be an appropriate size because he's fairly small still. BUT that's part of my question - I think he's a tad too small. He still has that "bread" shape that I've read about and is extremely active while I hold him (I have to pay serious attention to him or he'd be off exploring the house!), but he eats his pinky pretty quickly, pretty easily, and then seems to be exploring, looking for more. He has a bit of a visible lump after eating and I think going "up" to the next size feeder would be way too big. Should I add a second pinky to his meal? And if so, should I just leave it in his enclosure? I usually hold it and he strikes to grab it from me, but how would I add a second one? Just leave it in there for him to discover after he has his first one? Sorry for the book and tons of questions, but I really want him to be healthy, happy and growing! I'd been feeding him once every 7 days per instructions, but now have now been doing every 5 days for the past 3 feeding or so. Any advice would be GREATLY appreciated!! Thanks in advance!! :eatpointe

 

[BLKfly]

Snake size-feeder size-quantity-days between feed.
4-15g. 2-3g. 1. 4
16-23g. 3-4g. 2. 4-5
24-30g. 5-7g. 1. 5-6
31-50g. 7-9g. 1. 5-6
51-90g. 9-12g. 1. 6-7
91-170g. 13-20g. 1. 7
171-300g. 20-30g. 1. 7
Adults over 300g. 25g. 1. 10-14
This is my feeding chart but I'm sure others here will have one that you mat prefer better... Btw you can still hand feed him the second one

 

[EGallup628]

That makes sense to me - I've seen something a little similar but I feel better having it be from someone who is actually part of a forum instead of just some random numbers. Thank you. I'll try that for sure.

 

[BLKfly]

Don't blame you, do you have any pics of the little guy?

 

[DollysMom]

That chart is considered just a little aggressive when used in the extreme. I use the longer interval when there are two to choose from, i.e. 5 days rather than 4 days. I never feed as often as 4 days and in most versions of the chart the lowest weight says 4 to 5 days as well. I also usually wait a bit before sizing up on mice, and then use the lightest weight mice in that group. It is a good starting point, but if you are not careful you can grow your snake too fast and that is not a good thing.

It sounds like you have some good sense of what your snake needs. They all grow very slowly on pinkies. Mine even lost a gram the first month on pinkies before settling in and starting to gain.

Be careful when adding a second pinkie. Start smaller than the chart. The two together should only be a gram or two more than the one you have been feeding to start with to ensure a smooth transition and a low risk of regurge. People don't mention it, but you can start out feeding more than one pinkie by feeding one and a half. I cut them in half across the middle while still frozen. I have also done that when the pinkies I had were too large.

In spite of feeding on the conservative side, my snake weighed 134 grams at a year and now weighs 160 at 13.5 months. I will be starting her on 12 gram weanlings in 3 weeks.

 

[BLKfly]

I found the chart from Brian at BHB, it is definitely a little aggressive. Though I can't complain, it worked great. I've since made my own( feeding 32 snakes is pricey on this chart lol). Just thought it would be helpful posting a professionals chart.

 

[DollysMom]

I found the chart from Brian at BHB, it is definitely a little aggressive. Though I can't complain, it worked great. I've since made my own( feeding 32 snakes is pricey on this chart lol). Just thought it would be helpful posting a professionals chart.

Didn't meant to imply there was anything wrong with it. I use it for guidance for sure.

It's a Munson Plan variation. It has become the number one corn snake feeding chart. Even Munson made more than one version of it. It was designed to get snakes to breeding size quickly. Roy Munson (Dean Arnold) was a member/mod of this board long before me and reading the old posts about it, which can be found by searching, is very interesting.

 

[BLKfly]

I didn't think you said anything wrong. Texting always reads angry or defensive right? Lol. I think your right it is aggressive, our 1year 2 month old is 3 1/2ft long and 256g's. She's a freaking hulk lol.

 

[DollysMom]

Thanks BLKfly. Yes, the written word can be ambiguous to the nuances immediately seen in body language and facial expression. I just wanted to make my meaning clear. I'm not the great guru, but just sharing my belief and what is working for me, so I like to make that clear when I think I may have sounded too authoritative.

Wow, your girl she is big for 14 months, though that size is not unheard of and well within the realm of normal.

 

[texsnake]

Can someone explain to me why it's harmful to grow your snake fast? I've heard it's bad when you're raising breeders because internal sexual developmental reasons, but what if you're not planning on breeding for several years if at all?

 

[DollysMom]

I can't point to any scientific studies, but my understanding from what I have read here, especially in some of the old discussions when the Munson plan debuted, is that they just don't live as long and have more health complications. I admit that without hard data it is just the common wisdom, but if it makes sense and does no harm, why risk it?

I sort of wonder why, aside from reaching breeding size sooner, would anyone want to grow their snakes too fast. After all I'm raising a pet, not stuffing a colorful sausage with mouse meat.

 

[texsnake]

It was just a question, no reason for a pretentious attitude.

 

[DollysMom]

I'm sorry, Tex. No pretention meant in an admission that all I had was hearsay and not hard scientific evidence. I actually meant to be humble. I certainly felt humble as I wrote that.

 

[daddio207]

I can't point to any scientific studies, but my understanding from what I have read here, especially in some of the old discussions when the Munson plan debuted, is that they just don't live as long and have more health complications. I admit that without hard data it is just the common wisdom, but if it makes sense and does no harm, why risk it?

I sort of wonder why, aside from reaching breeding size sooner, would anyone want to grow their snakes too fast. After all I'm raising a pet, not stuffing a colorful sausage with mouse meat.

I agree 100%. I kinda tried beating this point in other threads. It's one thing to anthropomorphize an animal like a corn snake and overfeed it but to overfeed a snake to get it to breeding size just to try to produce the next morph for fame or profit and put the snakes health at risk is just wrong in my eyes. In my 45 years as a herpetologist I know it is not healthy.
anthropomorphization was the biggest issue I had when I owned my pet store. Fish was #1 and reptiles #2 when it came to not understanding that you can't apply what is normal for us humans to animals.

It was just a question, no reason for a pretentious attitude.

Texsnake, it is so easy to take what is in print the wrong way. It's another subject that's been discussed over and over here. I assure you DollysMom was not being pretentious

I'm sorry, Tex. No pretention meant in an admission that all I had was hearsay and not hard scientific evidence. I actually meant to be humble. I certainly felt humble as I wrote that.

The corn snake world (or at least I do) appreciates your promotion of reptile ownership but more importantly your care and concern for every animal that people have a question about is truly admirable!

 

[axis1]

I agree 100%. I kinda tried beating this point in other threads. It's one thing to anthropomorphize an animal like a corn snake and overfeed it but to overfeed a snake to get it to breeding size just to try to produce the next morph for fame or profit and put the snakes health at risk is just wrong in my eyes. In my 45 years as a herpetologist I know it is not healthy.
anthropomorphization was the biggest issue I had when I owned my pet store. Fish was #1 and reptiles #2 when it came to not understanding that you can't apply what is normal for us humans to animals.



Texsnake, it is so easy to take what is in print the wrong way. It's another subject that's been discussed over and over here. I assure you DollysMom was not being pretentious


The corn snake world (or at least I do) appreciates your promotion of reptile ownership but more importantly your care and concern for every animal that people have a question about is truly admirable!

Very well-said there daddio! I just got kind of a warm, fuzzy feeling inside and all over! I had to read your statement(s) over again because the first time got me very excited which is not an easy thing to do to me at 3:15 in the morning! (Looong day at work!).

Thanx for that!

Back to the main topic: Hey there Texsnake, how ya been? During the warmer months, especially when the sneaky ones appear to be relatively more active due to mating/breeding season and then summer, I feed my adult corns small-to-medium rats because of the increased fat & protein content. However, I space their feedings out to 3 weeks minimum. When I became concerned that I might be over-feeding them due to the appearance of one of my male corns (looked like he couldn't even JUMP to a CONCLUSION!), I simply inquired here by posting pix alongside my questions. I've made some modifications since then and all seems to be well. I think its better to bounce questions, especially about things we DON'T know, off of others who might. Therefore, your question seems to parallel my own process. That said, what I'm observing is a simple misunderstanding. Dollysmom speaks words of wisdom when she clarifies that the written word without the benefit of other non-verbal cues is often misinterpreted. At least you are getting multiple responses to your query, no? Just sayin'.

 

[BLKfly]

Poor dollysmom lol sorry to laugh but I find it funny how the whole point of these discussions is to find out others experience on the matter and if you find it insightful, try it. No one here is trying to be rude and bash others experience or questions. The more you feed your snake the sooner it will die, same can be said for us. If you want a big snake, and are not willing to wait. Buy an adult if you are not planing on breeding. I personally didn't know that chart was for breeding, so I'm glad we all had this discussion. I think we can at least agree you shouldn't feed more than that chart recommended lol. Also every snake grows different, you may stuff their face and they may not grow faster than one whom gets feed smaller mice. Like my shatter only gains maybe a gram, if that a week.

 

[DollysMom]

Lol BLKfly. This is one of the nicest, kindest boards around.

Yeah, people wanted to know how old "Roy Munson" grew his snakes to breeding size is my recollection of what prompted his first posting the Munson plan. Munson himself used to end the plan with the caveat "This is by no means scientific."

I kinda think is neat it all happened on this board. It's been a while since I read it all, but I urge folks to look it up. Fascinating reading. Okay, fascinating reading only if you are a corn snake nerd, lol.

 

[DollysMom]

Hate to double post, but while looking for the original post about "The Plan" which is hard to find due to Dean's vast number of posts, I found this little gem from "Roy" himself

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showpost.php?p=506107&postcount=10

I'm glad people like The Plan, but I think that its value lies mainly in the fact that it provides a structured feeding regimen. It was never intended to be the "Munson Get-Them-To-Breeding-Weight-In-12-Months Plan".

Of course the admitted nerd here read the whole thread. :uhoh:

P.S. Looks like Dean joined in 2005 so the plan had to be posted later than that. I had the date earlier in my mind.

 

[daddio207]

I really like what Duff had to say !

Just to make sure the other side has a voice before this gets too far along, the goal is not to see who can grow their snake the fastest. There really shouldn't be a rush to get your snake big as quick as possible. I really think people need to stop being so concerned with the size and weight comparisons. It makes newbies think it's a sign of good husbandry to have your snakes grow as fast as possible, which may actually be detrimental in the long run. There are many who believe fast growth rates shorten overall life spans. Just feed your snakes appropriate sized meals (1 1/2 times widest part of body) at appropriate intervals and let them grow at whatever rate their body grows. It's not a race. There's a reason the accepted standard breeding size and age are 3 years/300 grams, not 2 years/300 grams.

Being a "snake nerd" myself I just read the whole thing

Speaking of the 3/3/300 rule, at the expo on Sunday a rescue club across from me asked for my help in identifying hatchling corns (I know, ME, RIGHT?? LOL) they were raffling away at their table. Theirs were some of the same morphs at my table. When they said they had the parents with them I asked to see them and was surprised to see mom who could couldn't of been more than 2.5 feet and 200g ! She laid 8 eggs which all hatched....
There is always exceptions to the rules

 

[BLKfly]

[/QUOTE]When they said they had the parents with them I asked to see them and was surprised to see mom who could couldn't of been more than 2.5 feet and 200g ! She laid 8 eggs which all hatched....
There is always exceptions to the rules [/QUOTE]
You got that right, I just bought molly a motley het cinder amel from Tom Thompson and she laid I believe 5 or 6 eggs this year( we bought 2 of her babies as well ) and when I weighed her; she was only 141g lol. She is very small for 5 years old. The 5 year old peach bloodred Simone was only 187g. So I definitely agree that there is an exception.