How to produce Hypo-Lavender-Bloodreds

[Menhir]

Hi carol,

I already wrote Gregg an email and I think we both agreed that we misread or misunderstood each others postings. I know, that some of my "jokes" that I try in english may be easily misunderstood and may sound much ruder than they would sound in german. I think - in german you would have even smiled about the pray to Murphy, in english it may sound different and if you felt religiously offended in any kind of way, I'm sorry. I'm not religous at all so I don't know why it offends you and I didn't thought of people may be offended by such things.

But to your "questions":

I don't think it was the helpfullness that was resented.

I've read through Greggs homepage and he stated, that most of the ratios were calculated with the Predictor. So I thought that it was some kind of joke (Murphy) and remark on the low possibility. I didn't want to sound like an old man telling some children how the world "works".

Perhaps it should also be appreciated if people did not try to put a damper on others breeding projects.

Carol, please, why should I damper his project? What are the goals for me to damper Greggs project? I will quote myself:

I'm currently raising het. Amel, Lav, Bloodred - but I don't see this as a good way to start a project on OpalBloods.

As I said, the project is interesting and the chances are present to produce HypoLavBlood - I think we don't have to argue about that. But when I state about MY OWN ANIMALS(!) that they are not a "good" start for OpalBloods, why do you come to the conclusion, that I want to damper other persons projects if that means at the same time, to damper my own ones?

"Well then, I guess I better just throw my triple hets in the garbage." before he was satisfied.

The same as said above goes for this thought. Hmmm - the thing about the rude tone is, that I just tried to give some of the "snippy" tones back and as I already wrote Gregg, that it may sound ruder or less friendly that I want it to sound. I will take this as another example, that I should stick to my school english. On the other hand - the school english sounds a lot more like the old man, telling the untaught children...

Greetings
Michael

 

[carol]

Hi carol,
I think - in german you would have even smiled about the pray to Murphy, in english it may sound different and if you felt religiously offended in any kind of way, I'm sorry. I'm not religous at all so I don't know why it offends you and I didn't thought of people may be offended by such things.

Trust me, there is no need for apologies there, I feel that expecting people to be PC is much more offensive. I don't believe anyone should walk on such eggshells to be afraid of offending someone. Sometimes we just need to get over our sensitivities. I was just using an example on how both sides were being synical and I don't really see any thing wrong with that.

Carol, please, why should I damper his project? What are the goals for me to damper Greggs project? I will quote myself:

I don't know and as said, I could be reading too much into it. However, I don't see the point in repeating the fact that the odds were low after it was an acknowledged fact. Maybe for the same reason that you were offended by our responses regarding why we were continuing with our projects.

My sincere question is this, and sorry if you answered it and I missed it...
What exactly caused you to ask "what the issue is" in post 19, and "what the deal is" in post 22? I hope you can imagine how suprising it was to be asked these questions after no one was intending to cause an "issue".

The way I see it, you sparked a conversation that just happened to intrest people on giving their thoughts on working with triple hets. I want to understand what in those thoughts made you feel attacked. Was it pure poor tone translation? I'm not trying to argue, I'm trying to understand.

 

[Menhir]

What exactly caused you to ask "what the issue is" in post 19, and "what the deal is" in post 22? I hope you can imagine how suprising it was to be asked these questions after no one was intending to cause an "issue".
[...]Was it pure poor tone translation? I'm not trying to argue, I'm trying to understand.

I already wrote to Gregg, that I may have misread some of your postings, but I think you wouldn't deny, that both of your replys included somy snippy tones. As already mentioned, I may have answered in an unexpected rude tone.
Imagine, Gregg felt strange about me telling him that the chances are 1/64. I felt strange that people tell me, that the project isn't useless, with me never saying nor feeling that the project is useless - but you (both) wrote as if I had said that. I even stated, that 2 of 3 breeders that try it this way, can expect to get at least one animal. (hatching 64 animals... I think we all know now)

I don't want to use the native language thing as the reason for all things that aren't ok in our conversation - I think it may be one part of the thing that got wrong between us, but I'm neither going to say the I reacted perfectly, nor that I have the feeling you did.

And to be honest - if you wish others not be snippy - what about stopping the "crying for Menhir" comments? :santa:
So, all I can do is say sorry, that I did the things wrong that I could have done better and that I am not angry or something with anyone.

Michael

 

[carol]

Imagine, Gregg felt strange about me telling him that the chances are 1/64. I felt strange that people tell me, that the project isn't useless, with me never saying nor feeling that the project is useless - but you (both) wrote as if I had said that. I even stated, that 2 of 3 breeders that try it this way, can expect to get at least one animal. (hatching 64 animals... I think we all know now)

OK, now we are getting some where. What a mess. So here is my translation, you were offended because you thought comments on why one would work with triple hets as implying that you said working with triple hets as useless. In turn, my misunderstanding was that you were offended by the fact that we would make comments on why one would work with triple hets. Clear as mud?

And to be honest - if you wish others not be snippy - what about stopping the "crying for Menhir" comments? :santa:

I never had a problem with anyones "snippyness", I have just been trying to figure out what set you off. Quite honestly, I did not mean to create any snippy tones until post 37. I was just frustrated because it seemed to me like you just came along, said the chances were bad, end of the conversation and the fact that we continued the conversation was offensive to you. We now both know now that wasn't the case. Just because people make comments on challenges presented, doesn't mean they are attacking the commenter.

So, all I can do is say sorry, that I did the things wrong that I could have done better and that I am not angry or something with anyone.

My sentiments as well.

 

[Serpwidgets]

Since the thread went off to the side...

:-offtopic I think if your goal is only to produce a triple morph, then triple hets are a crummy way to go about it if there are any other options available. (Sometimes there are not any other options... if you want to produce sunkissed motley anerys, for example.)

However, people always seem to zoom in on the 1/64 thing, and miss the bonus with triple hets: the other things they produce. The difference on double morphs is 4/64 odds versus 10/64 odds, which is significant. Let's say you wanted to produce hypo lavs, hypo bloods, and plasmas. If you were working with double hets, you would need 3 pairs of snakes. Out of 32 eggs you might get 2 of the "desirable" outcomes. Meanwhile, with triple hets, from 32 eggs you would produce more like 5 of the "desirable" outcomes, two thirds of which are also het for the bonus gene, as well as that occasional triple morph that might happen. (Also a lot fewer normals.)

So, in my view: triple hets for producing a triple morph? Not such a wonderful idea. But, triple hets for producing double morphs and other variety in the clutch? Not too shabby for a couple of normals. Quad and quint hets (which are also generally seen as "your odds are even worse!") are even more productive than triple hets.

If I had to choose any triple hets to work with, hypo/lav/diffusion would be near the top of the list. But I'd probably want to throw motley and sunkissed in there, too. :grin01:

 

[carol]

I'm having a bad year here, I suspect it's due to a heat spike in my snake room in the beginning of the season, and the fact that a lot of my females were half way through ovulation when I woke them up. So not only was I short on time to get them all together, the heat spike happened during a critical time.
The ironic thing is, so far it hasn't effected any of my triple hets and I'm getting dozens of beautiful eggs from them when a lot of others are slugging out. It's been an interesting turn of events, the 1 in 64 projects that were done just for fun may end up being the only thing I have going for me this year. So even Murphy can have a way of making you thank your lucky stars for what you do have. :crazy02:

 

[Menhir]

However, people always seem to zoom in on the 1/64 thing, and miss the bonus with triple hets: the other things they produce.

I think you can'T say that in general.

E.g. the goal I wanted to achive with triple "OpalBlood" hets. was to have another line of Plasmas available. I will hopefully add a third one in summer. The possible Outcomes of AmelBlood and Opal are an extra bonus, that you explained very well - the OpalBlood is a special case that I don't think of.

Of course, the more hets. involved, the less "normals" you have in the clutch, but on the other hand it can also decrease your chances of a special subset of hom. Morphs. Let's say you have quadruple hets. and you want Plasmas so badly, ithe ratio is decreased from 16/256 (double hets.) to 9/256, which isn't far away from half of it. With morphs like Lavender and Plasma, HypoPlasma, I wouldn't mind giving some of the possibilites to the "more" hom. Morphs - but with Charcoal, Blood, Amel, Hypo involved, I may more like the Pewter and HypoPewter ones, than the Blizzard(Hypo, Bloodred...) and so on.

Greetings
Michael

 

[Serpwidgets]

Let's say you have quadruple hets. and you want Plasmas so badly, ithe ratio is decreased from 16/256 (double hets.) to 9/256, which isn't far away from half of it. With morphs like Lavender and Plasma, HypoPlasma, I wouldn't mind giving some of the possibilites to the "more" hom. Morphs - but with Charcoal, Blood, Amel, Hypo involved, I may more like the Pewter and HypoPewter ones, than the Blizzard(Hypo, Bloodred...) and so on.

LOL yeah amel has a wonderful way of inserting itself into all kinds of projects. I bred my pair of charcoals het hypo pewter to discover that, "hooray," amel is there! It doesn't matter much one way or the other to me... it would be cool to get a diffused blizzard for future stock. Oh, and I think that another bonus (anery) might also be present in that clutch. :grin01:

As you said, it depends on what your "favorites" are... some people would be thrilled to get blizzards in the mix, others might think it devalues some of their hatchlings.

 

[Menhir]

it would be cool to get a diffused blizzard for future stock. Oh, and I think that another bonus (anery) might also be present in that clutch. :grin01:

Yeah, the thing is - Blizzard + Hypo/Bloodred is hard to tell...
My two Pewters may also be het. Amel and one is 50% het. Anery, one os 66% het. Anery so I might get definitive AneryPewters... maybe also a nice to have but nothing to achive

As you said, it depends on what your "favorites" are... some people would be thrilled to get blizzards in the mix, others might think it devalues some of their hatchlings.

Right, as I/you already said, in the common case, one may be happy about more hom. traits.

 

[Rich Z]

The "secondary product" issue with the multi-het dilemma is probably going to be pretty much context sensitive on who is actually producing them. For those people BUYING the multi-hets, there is a real good chance that anything they get will be welcome because they may not already have them. However, in many instances, the people actually producing those multi-hets with a definite goal in mind, may very well have quite a few of the byproducts already, and although probably not unwelcome, are probably not going to be of very high interest. Possibly they could even be problematical to even get rid of. For instance if you had a pair of animals het for 3 different types of Hypomelanism and are shooting for a triple homozygous combo, although you will likely get all of those hypos coming out in the offspring, can you reliably identify them all? Do you want to keep them all, or sell them off? If you sell them, are your labels going to be 100 percent accurate? People buying them would probably like to think so.

I am breeding Amelanistics het for Opal and Blood Red this year, with the obvious goal of Opal Blood Reds. Realistically NONE of the byproducts are of any real interest to me at all. I don't need any more Opals, and really don't have much use for Amel Blood Reds either. If I had used normals het for those three genes, the results would have been even less interesting and less likely to produce what I am actually shooting for. NONE of the byproducts would be of much interest to me at all.

As much as is possible, I will spend the extra time to combine one of the genes in the combo within the parents to increase the odds in my favor. In my opinion, working with triple hets or worse, is just not a method that will help you retain your sanity very easily. Yeah some people will be lucky, but most likely will not. And yes you certainly can stack the odds a bit better in your favor by holding back more of the animals, but just for that one project you are talking about quite a bit of resources being allocated towards that one end.

If the odds were perfect (1 out of 64) how many adults do you REALLY need to have in order to get a good chance of producing a sexual pair of what you want from triple het parents? Not GOOD luck nor BAD luck, just AVERAGE luck. Over the years of keeping records, when I count noses of eligible females and then at the end of the year figure out the total number of saleable or keepable babies I produce, the average works out to about 12 babies per female. So with a 1 in 64 odds, that means you need to have 6 (actually 5.3, but 0.3 females don't do well in captivity) adult females allocated. If you want another (hopefully of the opposite sex) that is 6 more females. Want to increase your odds a bit more? Try adding 6 more females. And let's not forget males, so if you want proper coverage for those 18 females, I would want to have at LEAST 10 males available. So here you have 28 adult corns (I do hope you produced several clutches of those triple het babies to keep and grow up!) you are supporting just for the fighting chance of getting a sexual pair of that triple homozygous strain you are shooting for. And that is ONE SINGLE project. And STILL Murphy's Law can tip over the entire apple cart with a snicker.

As I mentioned, not very conducive to retaining your sanity...... Which probably explains a LOT about myself.

 

[Gregg]

Just for the record, Gregg does not set official policy on this site. Actually I encourage people to be helpful and volunteer information even if it is not specifically and pointedly asked for. That statement above about assuming someone already knows everything there is to know about all of the information someone else may be able to offer is utterly foolish, at best. Heck, I was going to suggest that someone knowing what they were doing would have started STEP 1 with a Hypo Blood Red and Hypo Lavender to increase their chances by limiting the number of heterozygous genes, but apparently that is already common knowledge for Gregg, so I won't bother.... 1 in 16 odds beat 1 in 64 any day of the week.

To those people who seem to resent the helpfullness offered by other members on this site, please take note: I would sincerely appreciate your NOT trying to put a damper on the enthusiasm of those people who are offering their knowledge and expertise for free even without the asking. Perhaps you don't appreciate it, but I'm willing to bet that MANY others here really do.

:-offtopic

Sticks and stones?
:shrugs:


Walking away now. :wavey:

 

[Noe..gr]

I have to say that this is one of the best threads I have read.And to think that it's in the photo gallery forum. Lots of great informations on the snakes we all here love and a great example of how we can do things better even through less good situations.I really have to say I feel great to be a small part of it. :wavey:

 

[xavusangel]

Lets just get along :crazy02: this is suppose to be a fun forum....*sigh*