hybrids vs. nonhybrids

[Roy Munson]

Sadly a lot of frist time buyers don't have friends to rely on. Or if they do they don't know corns. }:>/
N they usually figure those at shows are reputible or they wouldn't be allowe din.

I didn't have any "snake friends" to rely on when I got into this. I made some mistakes. Some of those mistakes may have been avoided had the seller given me more info, but I don't blame them for not doing so. I was an ignorant buyer, and I got exactly what I thought I was looking for.

"Figuring" and "assuming" can lead to mistakes. Reasonable people learn from these mistakes.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

Jen...it's not "my way". It's "the way". It's the way it is done. It's the way it has been done. It's the way it will continue to be done, regardless of how you, myself, or anyone else in this topic feels about it.

Again...I am not the one arguing for change. I am not the one saying that anyone doing it differently than myself is dishonest, has ulterior motives, or lacks integrity. These accusations are coming from the other side of the argument...not me.

Please...in the immortal words of Eric Clapton..."Before you 'cuse me, take a look at yourself." I am NOT the one fighting for change...YOU are. It's not about seeing things "my way". It's about seeing the reality of the way things are, and you do NOT see the way it is.

"My way" is not my way...it's the way it is. YOUR way is the "new way"...the changes YOU want to see are the changes to the "standards". The arguments YOU are making are the ones that are trying to "buck the system"...not mine.

Don't get confused on the issue. I don't want anything to change...YOU do. Try to remember that...

What is so hard for you about agreeing to disagree with those who see things different? Your way is only THE way in your version of reality, not mine. God did not come to me in a dream and tell me all Jungle Corns shall go by that name forevermore and give me these tablets to decree how that's the law, nor did any of the breeders I respect tell me it had to be the only acceptable way. Sorry, I guess I missed the memo where your word is the only truth.

 

[RavenSpirit360]

Thanks, you're making me blush. For the record, I think adding the word hybrid to a label isn't all that much to ask . . . BUT, I have a huge problem with the REASON that single word has to be added. Laziness.

Exactly We do our part by labeling it a hybrid in some way shape or form, be it by mouth, on the invoice or deli cup whatever. Then its up to the purchaser from that point on..
I hang out at my friends snake shop every weekend, and far too often the people that come in are uneducated. They do their best to educate people there, but cant be responsible for much more. Too often sick and dying snakes are brought back in because people never really took the time to care or research what their snake needed.. A good example, a lady bought a tortoise for her son last week, she was given all the care info she needed along with a list of foods to feed it. She called back the next week, worrying about it because it was constipated, she had only been feeding it bananas and hay. Hay wasnt even on the list of foods. The seller completed their responsibility, the buyer did not, laziness I am sure..

I will do my part as will most here by labeling their hybrids as such, what the buyers does after is their choice, we cannot change what is out of our hands. But we did our part.

 

[Bharmonika]

Some have been using the dog as examples to support their argument and that brought this one to my mind. One of these puppies is called a Valley Bulldog, the other, an English bulldog. One is a purebred, and one is a boxer/bulldog mix. Can you tell which is which? Believe it or not, people make the mistake of buying, what they think is a purebred bulldog, when, in fact , it is a mix. Or even worse, they are given this cute, adorable little puppy as a Christmas present. What's wrong with all breeders calling it a bullboxer? That is what it is after all. A lot of breeders do, but a lot don't. By-the-way, I love both the boxer and the english bulldog. I wouldn't mind owning a bullboxer one day.
1.)

2.)

 

[tyflier]

What is so hard for you about agreeing to disagree with those who see things different? Your way is only THE way in your version of reality, not mine. God did not come to me in a dream and tell me all Jungle Corns shall go by that name forevermore and give me these tablets to decree how that's the law, nor did any of the breeders I respect tell me it had to be the only acceptable way. Sorry, I guess I missed the memo where your word is the only truth.

You're confusing the issue, again.

You said yourself that when you went through the kingsnake.com advertisdements, the MAJORITY of sellers did NOT attach the word "hybrid" to the trade name. YOU said that...not me.

That's not "god" handing anything down...that's the accepted practice. By your own research, that is the accepted practice.

It's got nothing to do with me agreeing to disagree.

It has EVERYTHING to do with you and people arguing on your side of the debate, making the bold statement that anyone not doing it YOUR way is unscrupulous.

The problem with that is, as you very succinctly pointed out...YOUR way is NOT the only way to do it. Many people...dare I say MOST people...do NOT do it YOUR way. That does NOT make them dishonest nor does it make them unscrupulous, as yourself and several others have not only implied, but blatantly and boldly stated.

My personal opinion?? I believe that all hybrids should be labled as hybrids. The ONLY place that we disagree is with MY acceptance of "jungle corn", "creamsicle", "rootbeer", and "borneo bateater" as a hybrid label. You don't think that is enough. I think it is.

So THERE is the difference...not all of this other "stuff".

You're getting it flipped around...not me. YOU are the one looking for changes...not me. YOU are the one that doesn't agree with the majority...not me.

Please do not try to flip this into something that it isn't...it's not about "right and wrong". It's about what the majority already do vs. what you would like to see done. That's it.

 

[Ssthisto]

Depressing to me that it's so darned important AFTER the fact, but not BEFORE handing over their cash . . . :shrugs: And they're asking about regular old corn snakes more times than not!! That's funny right thar.

Yup. Equally so when someone's just shelled out £100+ for an animal and THEN start asking "what should I breed it to?"

Uh-hmm, that's exactly the impetus for the current discussion . . .

I had a specific reason for saying "caramel corn" actually... because a first-generation animal has the same sort of colouration as a caramel corn (yellows and browns) and a newbie keeper is in my experience going to focus on colour over other aspects of the phenotype. This forum benefits from being species-specific - you don't have quite so many people sticking their oars in when they don't know for sure what they're talking about... but I have seen exactly that - a jungle identified as a caramel by people who know that caramel corns are yellow and brown but not that they don't have kingsnake heads - in other places where one can supposedly speak to "experts".

Then who can you believe?

Because HE made HIMSELF that way, NOT because someone else began imparting information upon him.

I would bet that some of that information has been given by other people, though... how else would someone obtain information that cannot be discovered by personal observation?

 

[ghosthousecorns]

You're confusing the issue, again.


It has EVERYTHING to do with you and people arguing on your side of the debate, making the bold statement that anyone not doing it YOUR way is unscrupulous.

.

Please either point me to the exact post where I called you unscrupulous or else do me the favor of not lumping me in with anyone who has.

 

[wade]

Hey, I like some of the people on both sides of this argument. You guys have gone way beyond the point of finding a solution. All that the future holds for this discussion is hurt feelings. What say we let it die here. Please.

 

[tricksterpup]

Absolutely! That's why if I'm ever in the market for a horse, I'm going to do some serious research prior to purchasing one. Heck, I'm going to bring my buddy Deb with me, because she's a horse expert. Of course, I'll do my best to find a reputable horse breeder, but I'm not going to consider that to be the end of my responsibility as a buyer...

I am glad, never ask me about horses. I thought this was one.

funny thing about it, it turned out to be Gene's aka DaGiant, Dog.

 

[tyflier]

Jen--An excerpt from a post of yours on Page 20. The boldfaced parts certainly do imply certain aspects of reputability and integrity as applied to this topic:

...The most well known, established, respected breeders with excellent reputations got those reputations by offering excellent customer service and support. They were willing to go the extra mile to help customers learn! And their customers kept coming back and told their friends. Have you seen how many times Kathy Love goes out of her way to educate new owners on this forum? She must have heard it all a gazillion times but she is always generous with her time and willing to help others. That's why people love her.
Doing the very minimum required to inform a buyer is not good customer service. My time is as valuable as anybody else, but I do not resent spending it on educating someone, especially when it comes to hybrids which I don't want polluting the corn population down the line. Nor would I ever want a customer to feel like I didn't have the time or patience or inclination to help educate them just because they are new and don't know everything they should yet. New owners are usually pretty easy to spot. If I was selling a jungle to someone I had seen around on the forums that I knew to be knowledgeable I might not find it necessary to explain what it is, but if they are obvious newbies I'm not going to consider myself above making a little extra effort as a responsible breeder to educate someone.

And this entire post:

What is so hard for you about agreeing to disagree with those who see things different? Your way is only THE way in your version of reality, not mine. God did not come to me in a dream and tell me all Jungle Corns shall go by that name forevermore and give me these tablets to decree how that's the law, nor did any of the breeders I respect tell me it had to be the only acceptable way. Sorry, I guess I missed the memo where your word is the only truth.

Is in itself an implication against my character and reputability personally, based on what? Nothing, really. Certainly based on nothing I've said in this topic or any other...

Of course...there is always the post where you said to me, "You used to care. What happenbed?", which is absolutely an implication that I do not care to label acurately or about the purity of corns.

You see...your words say a lot. You imply a lot. Perhaps not as much as some others have, but certainly you have made implications against me and other breeders that do not agree with you in this topic. Perhaps not as bold or blatant as some others...but still there, none-the-less...

 

[tyflier]

Ssssthisto--

...I would bet that some of that information has been given by other people, though... how else would someone obtain information that cannot be discovered by personal observation? ...

I'd bet dollars to donuts he had to ASK for that information. I'd be further willing to bet that MOST of the knowledge that MOST of us have on this forum was gathered through hard research and asking questions...not by someone handing us a list of names, dates, and answers to questions we never asked.

When I started in this hobby...I had to seek out knowledge, it did not fall in my lap. I did it, because I knew that there was a TON of stuff that I didn't know.

Nobody expects a new keeper to know everything. Quite the contrary, we expect them to know that they do NOT know everything, and that there are questions they should be asking of themselves and the breeders from which they purchase animals.

Nobody is saying it is OK to give out bad or wrong information. Nobody is saying it is OK to lie or deny hybrid lineage. And nobody is saying that we, as breeders bear no responsibility for education. We have all agreed that there needs to be honesty, and that we all have to be willing to answer questions and contribute to the communal education.

Alot of you seem to have mistakenly assumed that those of us who think "jungle corn" is accurate are unwilling to say anything else, and quite frankly...that's simply not the truth. You are only reading part of our posts...

 

[Susan]

How many "Please identify this corn morph" posts are there on here every week? I know I answer at least three a week on another forum. Obviously they've BOUGHT the pretty corn snake at that point and NOW want to know exactly what it is. Wouldn't it be sad if they asked and found out their corn was a Jungle hybrid - and their very next post is "my jungle not-a-corn ate my caramel corn before I could separate them, gee I wish the shop had told me it was a kingsnake cross when I bought it... gee I wish the shop had KNOWN it was a kingsnake cross too."

Concerning the part highlighted in bold by me...

If that person had done their homework in the first place, the jungle corn could not have eaten the caramel corn simply because they would not have been in the same viv to begin with!

 

[Susan]

And cute puppies! The difference in the price tag should alert a purchaser that there may be something rotten in the state of Denmark. An English Bulldog usually has a $2000 - $4000 or higher price tag. A mix breed probably won't (unless the breeder is truly breeding solely for the money). And on a personal opinion note, English Bulldogs need to go back to square one. Anything that is literally physically incapable of reproducing on it's own, shouldn't be allowed to at all.

 

[Chip]

Doh, nevermind.. missed a page!

 

[ForkedTung]

Hey, I like some of the people on both sides of this argument. You guys have gone way beyond the point of finding a solution. All that the future holds for this discussion is hurt feelings. What say we let it die here. Please.

I see the fence...I know which side I'm on. the side of truth, justice and the American way!!! ROFL

Seriously Wade's right (although I have to wonder if I'm one of the "some people" he likes???)
[ hmm.. maybe a friends request would solve that...]

although I would like to say that I promise to continue in my endeavors to educate every poor, lazy, dorfbunkling schmuck I can find about cornsnakes and their hibirds, whether they like it or not!!!

and with that I bid thee all ado...

 

[tricksterpup]

I just wanted to say the following.

 

[tyflier]

I see the fence...I know which side I'm on. the side of truth, justice and the American way!!! ROFL

Seriously Wade's right (although I have to wonder if I'm one of the "some people" he likes???)
[ hmm.. maybe a friends request would solve that...]

although I would like to say that I promise to continue in my endeavors to educate every poor, lazy, dorfbunkling schmuck I can find about cornsnakes and their hibirds, whether they like it or not!!!

and with that I bid thee all ado...

On the same token...I don't dislike anyone because of their opinions in this topic. Nor do I have any less respect for anyone because of this topic. Not even Midnight, whom I gave an exceptionally hard time to early on(and subsequently apologuzed for it in private).

I know that everyone here, myself, and people voicing similar opinions to my own included, have nothing but the best of intentions at heart. Education is the key, and we all have our own way of doing that. I do not doubt the integrity nor honesty of anyone herein, and I hope none of you suspect me of being unscrupulous, though I detected the implications in several posts.

"I love you all"...as they say. We all have our opinions, and while we may not agree...you're all still good in my book. If for no other reason than we all love "cron sankes"...and the misspelling was definitely intentional...

 

[ForkedTung]

On the same token...I don't dislike anyone because of their opinions in this topic. Nor do I have any less respect for anyone because of this topic. Not even Midnight, whom I gave an exceptionally hard time to early on(and subsequently apologuzed for it in private).

I know that everyone here, myself, and people voicing similar opinions to my own included, have nothing but the best of intentions at heart. Education is the key, and we all have our own way of doing that. I do not doubt the integrity nor honesty of anyone herein, and I hope none of you suspect me of being unscrupulous, though I detected the implications in several posts.

"I love you all"...as they say. We all have our opinions, and while we may not agree...you're all still good in my book. If for no other reason than we all love "cron sankes"...and the misspelling was definitely intentional...

:-offtopic
LOL Just Kidding... well said and I agree

 

[wade]

Seriously Wade's right (although I have to wonder if I'm one of the "some people" he likes???)
[ hmm.. maybe a friends request would solve that...]

Dear Mr. Fork, I honored you request for my friendship. Why? Because I believe you to be a reasonably intelligent and honest person. Those are the qualities I look for in friendship. People who simply agree with me without thought on their part are not very interesting. The fact that you are on the wrong side of the fence is not a issue.

 

[Drizzt80]

One of these puppies is called a Valley Bulldog, the other, an English bulldog. One is a purebred, and one is a boxer/bulldog mix. Can you tell which is which?

But that's exactly the point. If you (as a potential purchaser) don't have the initiative to say "I've heard of the English Bulldog and the American Bulldog, but what exactly is a Valley Bulldog?" . . . Well, I just don't get it. At that exact point, and no other, the breeder is now responsible for the truth. The only way the customer has a complaint to make is if they ask that question, and the breeder lies. There's zero complaint if the customer asks that question and gets the right answer. For me personally, that's all this discussion is about. The person handing over the cash has the ultimate responsibility to ask the question . . . if they end up being lied to, well then we can start talking about deception and dishonesy. If Valley Bulldog is the "industry standard" for a boxer/bulldog cross, then it is not a deceptive name. Nor is Jungle Corn. The assertion is made/assumed that Jungle Corn is deceptive and dishonest because it lacks the "hybrid" moniker. :shrugs:

D80