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I hope this is relevant, if not i apologise

E.Crassus

Note, its only a hobby
Hiya Rich
Do you mind me asking how many breeding animals you have and on average how many babies you produce each year.
Im looking into going into corn snake breeding big time and I want to know a few figures that a big and succesful breeder can produce per year.
many thanks
Oliver Reville
 
I've asked Rich this question before and I believe he said somewhere around 800 adults and ~4000 or so babies a year.

Be prepared---it's a full time job---it's not a hobby.
 
I have no idea how many adults and subadults I have. I probably don't even want to know. Matter of fact, I do know that I need to sell off some of them, because I am running out of cage space and refuse to build a larger building. Last year I produced around 4,000 babies and the year prior, around 6,000. If I don't sell off some adults before breeding season, I may well surpass that 6,000 mark this year, and quite honestly I REALLY don't want that many babies to take care of. The best analogy I can think of concerning getting that many babies hatching out is like trying to take a sip of water from a firehose at full blast. :rolleyes:

And it is MORE then a full time job. Bear in mind that you will have to have your own rodent colony as well. You can't depend on an outside source for something like that which is so absolutely critical for your business. Between the rodents and the snake care, prepare to give up any idea of taking vacations or having any kind of a social life. You may be able to get away for 2 or maybe 3 days at a shot, but something is going to suffer from it when you are gone. The phrase you will hear yourself saying most often to friends and relatives is "darn, I really would like to get away, but things are just too hectic around here right now."

As for the number of babies you can support, the general rule of thumb is figuring out how many 1 day old pinky mice you can get per day when the babies have hatched out. Multiply that times the feeding frequency you want to maintain (5 to 7 days), and that will give you your answer for the MAXIMUM number of babies you can maintain at your peak hatching season. As a example, suppose you can get 500 1 day old pinkies each and every day, and you want to feed your baby snakes every 5 days, rain or shine. That is 2,500 baby snakes you can maintain per feeding period. If you stretch out the feeding schedule to every 7 days, then you can support 3,500 baby snakes. If you start stretching out the feeding schedule to maintain more snakes on the same number of available pinky mice, then you begin reaching a point of diminishing returns. There is a point, depending on individual metabolisms of the babies, where the snakes will die even if they are feeding at every meal you offer. This point averages around 10 to 12 days, but I have seen some individuals that required a much shorter time span between feedings. So you can see the risk attached to trying to make your pinky supply stretch further.

Another point to consider with the above numbers is that it takes me roughly 1 minute per baby snake to clean and feed them each cycle. So at that time of year, with 2,500 babies, I would need to put in roughly 41 hours per every 5 days ONLY for their care. And that is being extremely optimistic.

Even if you have a very large mouse colony being maintained, I would strongly suggest that you take at a prudent insurance policy by having at least 10,000 1 day old pinky mice in the freezer at the start of hatching season. Then replenish it each time you get that number down to around 5,000. That will give you a bit of a buffer in case something catastrophic happens to your mouse colony at the worst time.

Oh, and one final thing. This business is EXTREMELY labor intensive. My wife and I are reaching the point where we just may not be able to keep up with the labor involved and the grueling schedule it requires at it's peak demands. Each year this is getting harder and harder to do, and I am certain we will not be able to keep it up for too many more years. Perhaps you will be able to find skilled and qualified help, but unfortunately this has proven to be difficult to find where we are located. So bear that in mind. If you are giving up a career to pursue this full time, look as far into the future as you can. Are you giving up something that you will not be able to get back into in 10 years when you find that the demands of this business are more then you are willing to give for the rest of your life?

And after you have sweated blood and given up most of your life to do this, you will go to shows and have your animals on display to sell at what you think are reasonable and competitive prices, only to have someone next to you who only does this as a lark selling their animals at half your prices. I ran a poll on one of my other websites a long while back, asking people what they thought a "good show" was in relation to selling their animals as a vendor there. I was shocked to see that many people felt that breaking even (considering the cost of doing the show) was "good", as far as they were concerned. Well, if you are doing this full time and your total income needs to come from the selling of your animals, breaking even is NOT "good". But that is what you are competing against in the marketplace. People who just want to sell their animals for some pocket change and don't care what they actually get for them as long as they get rid of them and don't have to take them back home. Doing this as a "businessman", you will find it extremely difficult to compete with "hobbyists", because their overhead is nothing at all like yours is.

This is mostly the reason why so many "businesses" in this industry that were here 5 years or more ago, are no longer around. And it is why many of the businesses existing today, will NOT be here 5 years from now.

At times the heartbreaks and disappointments will shake and diminish nearly to the point of nonexistence the love you have just in doing this sort of work. And for many people the love and interest of what they are doing will just not be enough to sustain them.

Not trying to put a damper on your enthusiasm, but I'll be honest about it, I often wonder if my going into this full time and quitting my state job I had was really the smartest thing for me to do. I find that I am absolutely dreading hatching season more and more every year when I think of the work load attached to it. Yes, I have made a pretty good business out of this, but the cost to everything else in my life has been pretty harsh.

Oh, very last point and I am done. If your spouse does not support you FULLY and 100 percent in this (and I mean by digging in and actively HELPING), then all is lost. Many spouses will tolerate your 24/7 commitment for a while, but not for the rest of their lives. Sooner or later you will have to chose between one or the other. I am lucky in this regard, but many people have not been, and will not be.
 
Hi Rich.

I can't imagine doing this as a full-time job, but thanks for the glimpse into "your world." It's very interesting.

Now that you've answered the question, I'll risk going off topic. How/where do you plan on selling your surplus adults? Would you do an insider thing, and give contributors first crack at them? Wholesalers? Just curious.
 
I just need to get off my lazy butt (hah!) and inventory what I want to get rid of. The real problem is that I really don't have very many animals that I consider as "useless" around here and it gets tougher to force animals into that category every year. If I could actually get what those adults are worth to me in terms of the likely value of the offspring they can produce this year, it would be no problem. But it really irks me to have to sell a breeding sized adult female that can easily produce $700 worth of babies for me and not be able to get more then $200 (if I am lucky!) for her by selling her outright. What makes this even stickier, is that nine times out of ten, the babies from that female will wind up for sale this summer competing against me for business. Sort of adds insult to injury......

So I guess that is why I hesitate doing that inventory. No real incentive for doing so, and none of the options for dealing with adults I need to move out of the way for newer projects are real attractive.
 
Thanks for the info. These two posts have been enlightening. What a strange business this is. For you, it seems like kind of a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" proposition just to "right-size".
 
This is also a wee bit off topic, but was it really expensive to start out? I realize you make your own high end corns, but did you have to start out with a large breeding population that you had to buy the first couple of years? We should make a movie, "Being Rich Z"!
 
Wow Rich,
What an amazing life decision. I can relate a bit - not that my job has anything to do with breeding, but I do work in farming. During harvest season (which, with the added tourism to keep our little farm alive, starts around July and doesn't even beging to slow down until December), we are often working 18 - 20 hours at a shot, 7 days a week. After 7 years, I don't think I could imagine doing anything else. Although, I would rather curl up and die right now if anyone even whispered night shift, or harvest. It's a sick and twisted love/hate relationship. Not to mention that every year, the hubby (who is rediculously supportive) and I are close to divorcing by Christmas.
I don't envy you one little bit. How in the world is it that you manage to maintain a number of websites as well as shipping, sales and breeding??
I know - cloning right? :rolleyes:
 
Pumilio said:
This is also a wee bit off topic, but was it really expensive to start out? I realize you make your own high end corns, but did you have to start out with a large breeding population that you had to buy the first couple of years? We should make a movie, "Being Rich Z"!

I really don't know what it would take to start out RIGHT now with something like this and be successful. I started breeding corns around 1978, if I remember correctly. I had absolutely NO intention of making this a business. Matter of fact, a local pet shop wanted to buy some babies from me and I thought that was repugnant. Selling MY babies? I would rather release them! But someone said something (a pet shop owner, no less) that must have had a huge impression on me. He said "Rich, there is nothing wrong about people paying you for something you are good at."

So heck, I don't know, what WOULD be needed to start this kind of business? Probably LOTS of money. To buy the caging, breeding stock, supplies, etc., etc. would take quite a bit of money, I think. But you are still an unknown. Good reputations don't happen over night, and I have seen MANY people fail simply because they tried to take short cuts to the good reputation thing. That just doesn't happen. If you don't have the money to get started, the patience to wait for the results you need to happen, and the ability and strength of character to try to ALWAYS do the right thing, even if the "right thing" hits you in the stomach pretty hard, then you probably won't succeed.

daisy said:
Wow Rich,
What an amazing life decision. I can relate a bit - not that my job has anything to do with breeding, but I do work in farming. During harvest season (which, with the added tourism to keep our little farm alive, starts around July and doesn't even beging to slow down until December), we are often working 18 - 20 hours at a shot, 7 days a week. After 7 years, I don't think I could imagine doing anything else. Although, I would rather curl up and die right now if anyone even whispered night shift, or harvest. It's a sick and twisted love/hate relationship. Not to mention that every year, the hubby (who is rediculously supportive) and I are close to divorcing by Christmas.
I don't envy you one little bit. How in the world is it that you manage to maintain a number of websites as well as shipping, sales and breeding??
I know - cloning right? :rolleyes:

Yeah, and I have a lot of respect for farmers as well. I can relate to what they do. Everything is on a time table and when the time arrives, there is no "I don't feel like doing that right now." It needs to be done NOW, no excuses.

I'll tell you my biggest fear right now is that I am getting older and sooner or later something is going to break inside of me that some surgeon is going to have to fix. At certain times of the year, my choices will have to be to either grit my teeth and try to survive what broke a little while longer, or accept the fact that SerpenCo will be dead for at least a year. I'm 55 years old right now, and so far have dodged any such bullets, but my luck can't hold out forever. I mean, suppose I need to have open heart surgery right at the beginning of July when the babies begin hatching in another week or two? :eek: My wife, Connie, would try to do all she can, but it would probably put her in the hospital as well.

Truly, I dread the thought of this probability........ I don't think my luck is anywhere near good enough to dictate that I can only have a serious illness (including recovery) October thru February. :shrugs:
 
That's truly amazing. I really had never thought about how many babies you produced! From the last post it sounds like you need a Serenco "heir" like those oil & steel barons.
 
Rich Z said:
If your spouse does not support you FULLY and 100 percent in this (and I mean by digging in and actively HELPING), then all is lost. Many spouses will tolerate your 24/7 commitment for a while, but not for the rest of their lives. Sooner or later you will have to chose between one or the other.


Considering that Oliver is 16 and is probably just now starting the dating game...if you decide to do this, Oliver, say goodbye to whatever dating life you might have had. You would probably date 100 women (most likely much more) before you found "the one". Filter that along with the odds of finding someone supportive enough because you "just aren't there", and your chance of business success greatly diminishes.

Or...you may get lucky and find someone who enjoys snakes just as much as you do. Heck, I even found one who willingly takes on "feeding day". ;)
 
Fascinating post Rich...I'm sure I'm not the only one here that would mind if you 'adopted' me to help with your snakes, LOL. Reading your post makes me feel I am doing the right thing by picking the one kind of morph I want to concentrate on and keeping it small scale. Sounds like you can reach a point it where becomes work instead of something you just do to enjoy.
Last time you had the surplus sale I got a nice snake from you, I'll be watching for the next one!
 
Wow Wow Wow.
Rich you are like a god to me now lol.
I would never consider going into something as large as Serpenco, Im too lazy, I was merely enquiring out of curiosity.
I am really passionate and think im fairly good at keeping my snakes but if im honest I really am a begginer, keeping snakes for 3 years has seemed like a long time but when I think about it like Rich says hes been breeding since about 1978, its no time at all really.
I have ambition and a gf who is 110% behind me but I would never go to the lengths that Rich has, It would probably kill me first.
The furthest I would go is probably owning my own reptile shop in a partnership and no more, i have to be realistic as I know alot of people that havent been and have become ill or lost everything on it.
This has given me a great insight into the world of the greatest corn snake breeder in the world, if I were to say to a herper over here who do you think is the greatest corn snake breeder they would all say serpenco aka rich.
My greatest wish is to meet the great man himself as I feel it would enhance my reptile keeping no end and it would be an unforgetable experience.
Being harsh on the Uk reptile business but it can not compare in corn snake terms to the USA one, there are morphs that you lot have that still wont be over here in 10 years time and its a great shame as some of them are to kill for, I just love your miami's you have over there, stunning.
Well thanks to everyone that has posted and happy new year and best of luck with everything.
Oliver Reville
 
Sheesh! Now everyone is going to think I paid you to say all that........ :bowdown: :rolleyes:
 
Rich Z said:
Sheesh! Now everyone is going to think I paid you to say all that........ :bowdown: :rolleyes:

The cost for exports to England coming down any? :shrugs:

:roflmao: :roflmao: :roflmao:

Q
 
I must agree with my friend Oliver you are one of the greatest if not the greatest.
I couldn't imagine you giving up corns as it would devastate many many herpercultureists.
 
lozzer said:
I must agree with my friend Oliver you are one of the greatest if not the greatest.
I couldn't imagine you giving up corns as it would devastate many many herpercultureists.

Well, honestly, I would rather not give up living either, but sooner or later it's bound to happen. I just have to be realistic about things and plan accordingly.

Thanks.
 
Wow! I laughed, I cried...this thread was really interesting. I can see a lot of people going into something like this all gung-ho thinking they will conquer the world, but not realizing just what it really takes.

Rich,
The idea that "sooner or later something is going to break inside of me" just really got me. Talk about "stop being polite and start getting real"! Who needs MTV and The Real World?


I agree that I would love to be adopted to help out. Maybe I need to start looking into graduate schools in Florida rather than the west coast (strokes chin deep in thought).

Is good help really that hard to find? I suppose it depends what age group you're looking in. :shrugs: If you're anything like me, I probably wouldn't be able to trust anybody other than my wife or kids (assuming I had either) with something as precious to me as my own business that I had built myself, let alone caring thousands of living beings that my business was built on. But, I'm a pretty harsh (and good) judge of character, which makes me all the more picky when it comes to the people I surround myself with.

Dang it! Not supposed to end a sentence in a preposition! Oh, well. I do it all the time.
 
The cost for exports to England coming down any?

good plan... rich... sell the adults to us in the UK, and no competition at the US shows for babies.... :cool:

i know a few american breeders come to the EU shows... i'd be happy to meet up at the EU shows if you went (though time constraints may prevent i feel for you for sure) but if anyone you trust is going, and will take animals for you, then it opens up the UK market..

Nerys
 
Nice plan Rich...Sell the surplus adults over there and avoid the stateside competition.
But any snake you sell even if it's a hatchling could grow up eventually and potentially breed, possibly creating snakes that would compete with yours at the shows.
I see your side and how it must feel that people are selling the same morphs for less at the same shows but the majority of breeders just don't have the prestige associated with the serpenco name, so if the other vendors priced theirs the same everyone would just buy from you instead. I'm just trying to see it from both sides, & although it may be a double edged sword, you are the 'top dog' in the corn snake world.
Here is a question I've been pondering, I'm extremely small potatoes but I have 2 snakes with serpenco blood, one that you produced and the other one that was produced by somebody else who bought the parents from you. I know that being from serpenco stock will definitely add to their value to most herpers. I was just kind of wondering about the second one (that you didn't produce or sell to me) how do you feel about it if I say it came from serpenco stock or serpenco bloodlines? I am just curious because I know a lot of breeders will say serpenco stock or Kathy Love stock and it makes our snakes more desirable to buyers.
Anyway I hope you will continue to amaze us all with outstanding snakes for many years to come!
 
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