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Is it ok to feed live mice
- Thread starter Jsandy
- Start date
smigon
Old enough to know better
Megan and I have like minds when it comes to animal care, and I personally do want to apologize for chastising you. There are different beliefs in different parts of the country and world, what is totally normal to you may horrify others. Your statement caught me totally off guard, so I jumped at it without thinking.
I truly hope you stick around and learn and share your experiences. We are an eclectic bunch, but a bunch with big hearts and always willing to lend a hand or give words of wisdom. Too many people read what those who have been in the business for longer than most of us have been alive and say "meh, I will do it my way". Many times this ends badly. This is the greatest tool I have found for me and my kiddos.
I truly hope you stick around and learn and share your experiences. We are an eclectic bunch, but a bunch with big hearts and always willing to lend a hand or give words of wisdom. Too many people read what those who have been in the business for longer than most of us have been alive and say "meh, I will do it my way". Many times this ends badly. This is the greatest tool I have found for me and my kiddos.
Apology accepted thank you for calming down a bit. I look forward to continue learning about reptiles and corn snakes in general as long as Amber is in my care.
ipreventdeath
New member
I completely disagree with many comments posted on this thread in regards to euthanizing the pinky mice.
1. Yes, euthanizing them first is always better. That has come across.
2. No, fighting pinkies/fuzzies will not harm your pet.
3. CO2 is very hard to do with pinkies OR fuzzies. It takes faaaaar longer to take effect than on adults and, IMO, CO2 is not at all humane. Much like in water, they are drowning.
4. Cervical dislocation doesn't work on the pups. It just makes a mess.
The best way to humanely euthanize baby rodents is to simply place them in the freezer. It is easily, hands down the most humane way to euthanize pups.
1. Yes, euthanizing them first is always better. That has come across.
2. No, fighting pinkies/fuzzies will not harm your pet.
3. CO2 is very hard to do with pinkies OR fuzzies. It takes faaaaar longer to take effect than on adults and, IMO, CO2 is not at all humane. Much like in water, they are drowning.
4. Cervical dislocation doesn't work on the pups. It just makes a mess.
The best way to humanely euthanize baby rodents is to simply place them in the freezer. It is easily, hands down the most humane way to euthanize pups.
Rigby & Marcy
New member
I wasn't going to say anything ipreventdeath, because I'm not a mouse and I don't know what being killed feels like, but I questioned some of those points too, and I also question some of your points. I have killed fuzzies using CO2 and it seemed to work within 5 seconds. It looked exactly the same as videos of CO2ing adult rats that I saw on Youtube. I also don't understand how drowning could possibly be any different than CO2 poisoning.
I also don't know a more humane way with young pups. I have frozen one-day-old pinks by placing one in each section of a cardboard egg carton, and they were alive long enough for one to climb out and crawl around the freezer. I don't think it was especially humane. I also fed one live pinky to each of my hatchlings, thinking they were hardly sentient, but they screamed all the way down. That wasn't humane either. I haven't tried CO2 on pinks so I can't comment on that.
Just my thoughts... always willing to make things more humane if possible.
I also don't know a more humane way with young pups. I have frozen one-day-old pinks by placing one in each section of a cardboard egg carton, and they were alive long enough for one to climb out and crawl around the freezer. I don't think it was especially humane. I also fed one live pinky to each of my hatchlings, thinking they were hardly sentient, but they screamed all the way down. That wasn't humane either. I haven't tried CO2 on pinks so I can't comment on that.
Just my thoughts... always willing to make things more humane if possible.
ipreventdeath
New member
A pup can crawl out if a small container quickly, however euthanization isn't about the quickest method, but the more humane. Believe me, in a commercial freezer, it is faster than CO2 and more humane.
Live pups will cry out when being eaten. It is not a humane way to go. I, however, am not concerned as much for the mouse as I am for my pet. A pinkie/fuzzy poses no threat and is not easily euthanized. Therefore live is the way to go.
Live pups will cry out when being eaten. It is not a humane way to go. I, however, am not concerned as much for the mouse as I am for my pet. A pinkie/fuzzy poses no threat and is not easily euthanized. Therefore live is the way to go.
Shiari
Blutterer
C02 will kill a pinky or fuzzy just as fast as an adult. It is not at all like drowning because higher brain function (consciousness) gets shut down right away whereas it does not in drowning because it takes quite a while for the c02 levels to build up.
No one ever said that a fuzzy was going to hurt a snake.
No one ever said that a fuzzy was going to hurt a snake.
ipreventdeath
New member
I'm sorry, but you are mistaken. CO2 does not effect pinkies or fuzzies in the same manner as adults. In either case, it is not a quick and painless death. The same process that occurs in drowning, occurs with CO2 poisoning. CO2 has nothing to do with losing consciousness. Lack of O2 causes the loss of consciousness. When drowning, water prevents oxygen from entering the blood stream. With CO2 poisoning, the oxygen is displaced and in unavailable. Both processes have the same result.
This post asked the question of feeding live baby mice to her snake. One commenter said not to feed live mice because they can injure your snake. Someone new to the hobby might mistake that quote.
This post asked the question of feeding live baby mice to her snake. One commenter said not to feed live mice because they can injure your snake. Someone new to the hobby might mistake that quote.
ipreventdeath
New member
"Neonatal animals (up to 10 days of age) are resistant to the effects of CO2." From the National Institutes if Health in regards to euthanizing laboratory rodents. Fuzzy mice range from 7-14 days of age.
http://oacu.od.nih.gov/ARAC/documents/Rodent_Euthanasia_Adult.pdf
http://oacu.od.nih.gov/ARAC/documents/Rodent_Euthanasia_Adult.pdf
Nanci
Alien Lover
It doesn't seem like there is a practical way for a person to euthanize pinky mice.
a. Mouse, Rat, and Hamster Neonates up to 10 days of age: Acceptable methods for euthanasia include: injection of chemical anesthetics (e.g., pentobarbital), decapitation, or cervical dislocation. Additionally, these animals are sensitive to inhalant anesthetics; e.g., CO2, or isoflurane from a vaporizer (used with appropriate safety considerations) although prolonged exposure, up to 50 minutes1, may be necessary. A secondary physical method of euthanasia is recommended to ensure death (e.g. cervical dislocation, decapitation, bilateral pneumothorax). “Fetuses that are believed to be unconscious and altricial neonates < 5 days of age ... may be quickly killed by rapidly freezing in liquid N2.”1 For neonates 5 days or greater, immersion in liquid nitrogen may be used only if preceded by anesthesia. Anesthesia may be induced by inhalant or injectable anesthetics; the institute veterinarian should be consulted for appropriate agents and dosages. Alternatively, when adequately justified, hypothermia may be used to induce anesthesia in pups six days of age or less (however 3-4 days of age is more typical).
a. Mouse, Rat, and Hamster Neonates up to 10 days of age: Acceptable methods for euthanasia include: injection of chemical anesthetics (e.g., pentobarbital), decapitation, or cervical dislocation. Additionally, these animals are sensitive to inhalant anesthetics; e.g., CO2, or isoflurane from a vaporizer (used with appropriate safety considerations) although prolonged exposure, up to 50 minutes1, may be necessary. A secondary physical method of euthanasia is recommended to ensure death (e.g. cervical dislocation, decapitation, bilateral pneumothorax). “Fetuses that are believed to be unconscious and altricial neonates < 5 days of age ... may be quickly killed by rapidly freezing in liquid N2.”1 For neonates 5 days or greater, immersion in liquid nitrogen may be used only if preceded by anesthesia. Anesthesia may be induced by inhalant or injectable anesthetics; the institute veterinarian should be consulted for appropriate agents and dosages. Alternatively, when adequately justified, hypothermia may be used to induce anesthesia in pups six days of age or less (however 3-4 days of age is more typical).
smigon
Old enough to know better
Isn't the quickest method the most humane?
Nanci
Alien Lover
I don't know- take snakes for example- decapitation is quick, but inhumane.
smigon
Old enough to know better
Ah, I was seeing it as the quickest way to die, not the method itself. And while this is not my thing whatsoever, wouldn't decapitation be instantaneous?
DuxorW
Derailer of Threads
Crushing the brain in both mice and snakes is more humane than decapitation if you are able to do it properly.
Mice can be humanely frozen until the third week of age. They fall asleep quickly and painlessly.
Cervical dislocation is more humane than CO2 if you perform it correctly, but CO2 is less painful and traumatic than drowning because water is not entering the lungs. Unlike water, CO2 actually anesthetizes small animals and induces seizing rapidly.
Mice can be humanely frozen until the third week of age. They fall asleep quickly and painlessly.
Cervical dislocation is more humane than CO2 if you perform it correctly, but CO2 is less painful and traumatic than drowning because water is not entering the lungs. Unlike water, CO2 actually anesthetizes small animals and induces seizing rapidly.
Thank you all for your continued advice and interesting points of view. As I stated earlier I'm completely new to the world of reptile care and comfort and was simply trying to make use of what just happened to present itself. Amber is doing very well IMO and I'm enjoying learning about reptiles (mostly corn snakes). I have a deep appreciation for all life, however as a result of the way I've grown up had never really considered a rodent anything more than carriers of disease and something to be disposed of. I'm happy to inform you that I no longer seek to provide Ambers food needs from the wild and have a good supply of feeder mice that have been euthanized "humanely" by someone else and shipped to me frozen. Thanks again for the wonderful insight but I think this inquiry and my error in how to dispose of found wild fuzzies caused more of an upset than I thought possible. There are clearly a lot of different opinion on this subject and it's those varied views hat makes this such a great learning site.
Thankfully yours, Joe S.
Thankfully yours, Joe S.
Nanci
Alien Lover
I think I missed the whole "wild mice" part of this. Rodents may have eaten pesticide, or other unhealthy things. They could even be carrying a disease to spread to you. Insects are even worse; they have a pretty wide range and touch or consume pesticides or fertilizer. Feeding a wild animal, except in the emergency case of using a lizard or toad for scenting, is just not worth the pennies you save.
Saving was never the issue
I was completely new to the world of reptiles and all the information I was getting was from Google and Wikipedia and when I rescued Amber I was told that she hadn't eaten in almost 6 weeks so as I researched what they eat I tried a few recommended foods that I had available until I was able to get some pinkies. Included amongst them were small amphibians fish and bird eggs never once did I try any insects. At the time when the mice came into question I had already gotten frozen pinkies and she was eating fine. I kept the mice totally separate and kept them alive until I knew for sure if it was safe. Which is basically how I found this forum and why. Once I was told without a doubt that it was not advised I disposed of the mice but it was he method in which I did so that became of such controversy. I now have a broadened view and have made amends(hopefully) but I appreciate your opinion on he subject of euthanasia even if that was not the original topic of inquiry.
I was completely new to the world of reptiles and all the information I was getting was from Google and Wikipedia and when I rescued Amber I was told that she hadn't eaten in almost 6 weeks so as I researched what they eat I tried a few recommended foods that I had available until I was able to get some pinkies. Included amongst them were small amphibians fish and bird eggs never once did I try any insects. At the time when the mice came into question I had already gotten frozen pinkies and she was eating fine. I kept the mice totally separate and kept them alive until I knew for sure if it was safe. Which is basically how I found this forum and why. Once I was told without a doubt that it was not advised I disposed of the mice but it was he method in which I did so that became of such controversy. I now have a broadened view and have made amends(hopefully) but I appreciate your opinion on he subject of euthanasia even if that was not the original topic of inquiry.
And I appreciate the advise of others with experience that is the best way I've found for learning just about anything. I have never been one to ask for advise and then just do my own thing. If I'm asking it's because I need help. Thanks smigon.