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Killing mice

what?!

Please tell me you are joking. How would I like to be tied in a plastic bag? For that matter, how would I like to be snake food? Not much, and I assume you would say the same, but you do feed your snakes don't you? As for co2 being instant, what a joke. The whole idea is to do it slowly so the mouse falls asleep. How is that instant? Also, if a mouse were in a sealed bag, not vacuumed not with rubber bands, what do you think it exhales? Let me tell you, CO2. When he runs out of oxygen, what's left? CO2! Why do you have to introduce co2, he produces it? When the mouse breathes in the co2, after using the oxygen, is he not going to get the same "co2 poisoning" he would get in a chamber?
For the record, I don't just let mice suffocate in zip lock bags, not that I need to explain that to anyone. I was looking for an educated answer to my question, not flames from a PETA band wagoner who does not have facts to back up what they say.
If someone has facts or experience and can explain why or how a chamber is more humane than breathing their own co2, I would really appreciate it.
Jimmy
 
OK Jimmy, I’ll explain it to you. When you put a mouse in a plastic bag waiting for it to consume the oxygen it will go through a period of oxygen starvation. It could last 10 or 15 minutes, which would be an eternity when you can’t catch your breath. You would very slowly suffocate.

When you place a mouse in a CO2 chamber, and then add the gas, the oxygen is displaced by the CO2 in a matter of seconds. The mouse is not breathing oxygen poor air but straight CO2. This causes the mouse to slip into a state of narcosis. Within seconds the mouse looses all conscious thought. There is no suffering.

This is not just my opinion, this is the method excepted by the scientific community. The only other method that has been approved is cervical dislocation.

All the other methods discussed in this thread are nonsense and would be considered animal cruelty if it ever came to a court of law.
 
wade said:
All the other methods discussed in this thread are nonsense and would be considered animal cruelty if it ever came to a court of law.
Click to expand...

I'd love to see the court proceedings for my use of a mouse trap in the garage. What's next, animal cruelty for feeding live rats to my snake?

If you can't in good conscience kill a feeder for your Corn Snake, anyway you please, you should own a pussy cat instead. :sobstory:
 
daytona said:
I'd love to see the court proceedings for my use of a mouse trap in the garage. What's next, animal cruelty for feeding live rats to my snake?

If you can't in good conscience kill a feeder for your Corn Snake, anyway you please, you should own a pussy cat instead. :sobstory:
Click to expand...

Well, considering the damage a live rat can inflict on a snake, and the danger involved for the snake, and considering that rats are HIGHLY social and intelligent (as intelligent as dogs in fact), I would call feeding a snake live rats horrible husbandry AND cruelty for BOTH the snake and the rat.

Killing an animal, ANY animal "any way you please", without a concern for the animal suffering IS cruel. It is possible to keep snakes, while actually HAVING a conscience, and causing as little suffering as possible.

Unless, of course, your very reason for having a snake in the first place it that it gives you "license" to torture animals, because that's REALLY what you get off on....
 
starsevol said:
Unless, of course, your very reason for having a snake in the first place it that it gives you "license" to torture animals, because that's REALLY what you get off on....
Click to expand...

I guess that's the real reason people own dogs and cats too. I always wondered about that :sobstory:

I love the smell of a used mouse trap in the morning. It smells like VICTORY! :laugh:

Just how do you feel about hunters then? :uzi:

Lighten up guy, It's all fun. :dancer:

Oh, BTW, All my Corn Snake will eat are live rats. He stopped eating frozen/thawed about a year ago. He does just fine with live ones. He nails them as soon as I put them in his viv. On the rare occasion that he does not, I save it for the next day. He has never been bit and I don't have to worry about going through the agony of killing someone, uh, something. They are called RATS for a reason. "They are no-good dirty rats". "You dirty rat, you shot my brother in the back".

All rats do is warn us of impending ship wrecks and keep our Corn Snakes' bellies full. Oh don't forget keeping us supplied with plague causing fleas.

I REPEAT, "If you can't in good conscience kill a feeder for your Corn Snake, anyway you please, you should own a pussy cat instead."
 
daytona said:
I guess that's the real reason people own dogs and cats too. I always wondered about that :sobstory:

I love the smell of a used mouse trap in the morning. It smells like VICTORY! :laugh:

Just how do you feel about hunters then? :uzi:

Lighten up guy, It's all fun. :dancer:

Oh, BTW, All my Corn Snake will eat are live rats. He stopped eating frozen/thawed about a year ago. He does just fine with live ones. He nails them as soon as I put them in his viv. On the rare occasion that he does not, I save it for the next day. He has never been bit and I don't have to worry about going through the agony of killing someone, uh, something. They are called RATS for a reason. "They are no-good dirty rats". "You dirty rat, you shot my brother in the back".

All rats do is warn us of impending ship wrecks and keep our Corn Snakes' bellies full. Oh don't forget keeping us supplied with plague causing fleas.

I REPEAT, "If you can't in good conscience kill a feeder for your Corn Snake, anyway you please, you should own a pussy cat instead."
Click to expand...

AS far as I know, dogs and cats are PETS. They are not expected to kill their own food, and people don't keep them because they get off on torturing rodents. Most people here keep snakes as PETS too and won't knowingly put them in harm's way.

Um, just say that when your snake loses an eye, or worse. Or at least use MICE. Mice are less fatty, much more appropriately sized food for cornsnakes and much less dangerous to feed live.

Your husbandry practices prove you are fairly ignorant when it comes to snakes. You are also fairly ignorant when it comes to rats.
To date, rats have SAVED more human life than just about any other animal! What do you think LIFE-SAVING drugs are tested on (because they are physiologically so close to humans)? Someone you love may owe their life to a rat.

There is also a species of rat trained to locate undetinated landmines in war-torn countries. They save human life and limb everyday.

That's not even going into what incredible pets rats make. So, yes, I understand they are food for other things. But if you don't use them HUMANELY and with RESPECT, many of us "real" snakekeepers will just consider you a sack of cruel monsterous trash.
 
Beth, you are obviously dealing with an infantile troll here. Don’t waste your time responding to his dribble.

Beth, you posted right on top of me.
 
I agree Wade we left high school how long ago......

On the lighter side ...

Rats in minefeild.

There he is lower left...No wait thats just a rock

explosion.png
 
LawDog1 said:
Please tell me you are joking. How would I like to be tied in a plastic bag? For that matter, how would I like to be snake food? Not much, and I assume you would say the same, but you do feed your snakes don't you? As for co2 being instant, what a joke. The whole idea is to do it slowly so the mouse falls asleep. How is that instant? Also, if a mouse were in a sealed bag, not vacuumed not with rubber bands, what do you think it exhales? Let me tell you, CO2. When he runs out of oxygen, what's left? CO2! Why do you have to introduce co2, he produces it? When the mouse breathes in the co2, after using the oxygen, is he not going to get the same "co2 poisoning" he would get in a chamber?
For the record, I don't just let mice suffocate in zip lock bags, not that I need to explain that to anyone. I was looking for an educated answer to my question, not flames from a PETA band wagoner who does not have facts to back up what they say.
If someone has facts or experience and can explain why or how a chamber is more humane than breathing their own co2, I would really appreciate it.
Jimmy
Click to expand...

Why would I need scientific proof for such a basic concept? It's common sense to know that suffocating in any way takes longer than CO2 poisoning.

Maybe you should read up about CO2 poisoning, it's a lot more complex than you think and if done properly it's A LOT different than suffocating.

wade said:
OK Jimmy, I’ll explain it to you. When you put a mouse in a plastic bag waiting for it to consume the oxygen it will go through a period of oxygen starvation. It could last 10 or 15 minutes, which would be an eternity when you can’t catch your breath. You would very slowly suffocate.

When you place a mouse in a CO2 chamber, and then add the gas, the oxygen is displaced by the CO2 in a matter of seconds. The mouse is not breathing oxygen poor air but straight CO2. This causes the mouse to slip into a state of narcosis. Within seconds the mouse looses all conscious thought. There is no suffering.

This is not just my opinion, this is the method excepted by the scientific community. The only other method that has been approved is cervical dislocation.

All the other methods discussed in this thread are nonsense and would be considered animal cruelty if it ever came to a court of law.
Click to expand...

Wow, ing thank you. I didn't think it was going to take that much explanation..... :uhoh:
 
alright here we go...

http://ko.cwru.edu/services/musfrming.html

What are the acceptable methods of euthanasia?
Mice are narcotized by CO2 inhalation and then euthanized by cervical dislocation. Although CO2 alone can euthanize the animals, it must be ascertained if the animals have died (see the NIH guidelines on the use of CO2 alone), thus cervical dislocation is recommended after the use of CO2. CO2 must be delivered from a tank, not from dry ice. The ARC provides tanks and chambers. Let the gas flow for 1 minute to fill the chamber and leave the chamber closed for 5 minutes. The narcotization of mice is rapid, so do not leave the chamber unattended. Death should be ensured by cervical dislocation. In the different facilities at CWRU, mice can be left on the racks in a designated room to be euthanized by ARC staff. The mice must not be overcrowded, and must have sufficient food and water to last through working hours of the next working day. If unweaned pups are left without their mother, the ARC must be notified immediately so that euthanasia may be performed without delay.

CO2 for euthanasia is cheap, convenient, effective and poses little risk for staff and investigators, but the humaneness of its use is increasingly debated. An alternative method of euthanasia is to anesthetize the mice with isoflurane before cervical dislocation. In a chemical fume hood (i.e. an explosion-proof hood vented to the outside), put a cap-full of isoflurane on tissues in the bottom of a small chamber (an empty plastic pipet tip box for euthanizing single mice), place the mouse inside and close the chamber. When the mouse is immobile, open the chamber and perform cervical dislocation. Be aware that isoflurane is a health hazard, and exposure to personnel should be avoided by confining use to chemical fume hoods and anesthesia apparatus and by proper storage.

Mice may be euthanized by cervical dislocation without anesthesia by experienced, competent individuals, if scientifically justified. The IACUC may require demonstration of proficiency in cervical dislocation. Cervical dislocation is performed by picking up the mouse by the base of the tail. The mouse is allowed to grip the bars of a transversely oriented cage top and while pulling gently backwards by the tail, the base of the skull is firmly gripped between thumb and index finger. To ensure humane euthanasia, cervical dislocation should be learned under supervision of a qualified individual.

What are the acceptable methods of euthanasia for fetal and newborn mice?
Newborn mice can be narcotized in a small plastic bag with CO2 from a gas cylinder, the bag is sealed, then the mice are euthanized by placing in a freezer. Complete CWRU IACUC regulations and recommendations on acceptable methods of euthanasia of fetal mice (over 14 days of gestation), newborn mice and young mice are available here.
Click to expand...
 
here's a good post I found here from a long time ago..

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=16536

In any case, if you don't want to set up a CO2 chamber, how about a mini CO2 chamber and use dry ice? Put the ice in a small container with holes in the top or top of the sides. Add warm water to get the CO2 rolling, place this at the bottom of a container, put the mice down in the fog, wait a couple minutes. CO2 is heavier than air, so a lid really isn't necessary, and you don't want it air tight with CO2 letoff from dry ice..... They will succumb to high CO2 levels in their blood and quit breathing pretty rapidly. The are unconscious within a minute or less.
Click to expand...
 
A comment on the CO2 method. I have seen this done on 4 lbs rabbits and it really does make them happy and stupid before they fall asleep and die peacefully. They were all males, but one was so happy he just had to hump another male till he passed out. Rabbits are awesome.
 
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