labeling motley/stripes... yet again!

[pgr8dnlvr]

Just wondering if any more has been found out about how motley and stripe work? Are they on the same allele? Has anyone figured out more rules as to how these genes act?

I know that motley/stripes are essentially het motley AND stripe, I know that motley is the more dominant trait and it often covers stripe completely, I know that snakes that LOOK like perfect motleys can hide the stripe gene.

I DON'T know -

Why I am not getting more mandelean results with my pair of motleys het stripe - 23 babies produced, patternwise all motley except for two perfect stripe. No motley stripes.

How to label my motley looking babies from pairings of motley and stripe parents <ie. motley het stripe if they look perfect motley, or het motley/stripes. or just plain motley and not mentioning stripe unless specifically selling to people I know are interested in breeding...>

Why I am not producing more motley/stripes?

Anyone with input or ideas, please lets DISCUSS!!

Here are pics of my two stripe babies -

Here is an updated pic of last years perfect stripe she is growing great and eating large fuzzies/small hoppers


Here is the baby boy from this year....


Here is a pic of the rest of the clutch from this year -
There ended up being 1.2 snow mot ph stripe, 2.3 amel mot ph snow stripe, and 1.0 amel stripe!


Here is a link to a discussion about last years clutch -
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=67521

Here is a picture of another clutch from a motley bred to a stripe parent -
There were 2.3 Amel motley het caramel stripe, 5.3 Ultramel motley het caramel stripe, 2.0 ultramel motley/stripes het caramel, 1.0 amel motley/stripe het caramel!






The last was a normal pattern bred to a stripe pattern -
1.1 normal het snow, motley/stripe - 3.2 snow mot het stripe, 0.1 Anery motley het snow, stripe - 3.0 Normal motley het snow, stripe - 0.3 snow het mot/stripe - 2.0 amel motley het snow, stripe - 1.0 amel het anery motley/stripe



PLEASE ADD YOUR INPUT!!

Thanks!

Rebecca

 

[wade]

Motley and strip are at the same locus but they are not the same allele. The first two pictures you posted are true strip, or four-line strip phenotypes. They would not have the motley gene at all. I see motley/stripe babies that would have both a motley and a stripe gene, I am seeing mostly motley babies that would be motley-motley. By breeding a motley to a true stripe, you won’t get any true striped babies.

 

[tbtusk]

the issue your running into is that motley often (and I think always, although there may be some debate about it) completely masks stripe. That means that in you clutch which should be 1/4 stripe, 1/2 motley-stripe, and 1/4 motley, visually both the motleys and motley-stripes appear to be motleys, and it looks like you are getting 3/4 motley, when in fact you are getting half motley-stripes but can not tell the difference between them and the motleys visually.

There is also a little confusion around the name motley-stripe. It can be applied to motleys with a mostly or fully striped pattern or it can be used to describe a snake het for both motley and stripe, but these two usages have nothing to do with one another.

 

[Pasodama]

Why I am not getting more mandelean results with my pair of motleys het stripe - 23 babies produced, patternwise all motley except for two perfect stripe. No motley stripes.

By breeding a Motley, to a Stripe, you should get all Motley phenotype babies ... be the Motley pattern perfect circles, or ovals, or q-tipped, or "striped"(striped version of the Motley pattern), or a combination of any of these.
Whichever Motley pattern you get is just luck of the draw (so to speak).

How to label my motley looking babies from pairings of motley and stripe parents

One term (for babies from the cross of a Motley to a Stripe) is "Motley het Stripe". Unless they are newbies, etc.... most people know what Motley het Stripe means (Motley phenotype but are het Motley & het Stripe). Although, you may get some critiques, on that, since that term does not say het Motley ~and~ het Stripe.

Another term used is "Motley-Stripe". This term can still confuse people since they might not know if you mean Motley-Stripe (as in Motley phenotype but het Motley and het Stripe) or if you mean Striped Motley (the striped form of the Motley pattern).

Personally, I plan to use either term but, will, also, add something along the following line:
Motley phenotype but are, actually, het for Motley ~and~ Stripe.

I am seeing mostly motley babies that would be motley-motley.

If the Motley phenotype babies are from the breeding of a Motley, to a Stripe, they are not "Motley-Motley" ... they would be het Motley and het Stripe (Motley-Stripe).

By breeding a motley to a true stripe, you won’t get any true striped babies.

... Unless the Motley were het Stripe (a Motley-Stripe), of course.

 

[pgr8dnlvr]

Keep the comments coming please So far it seems I did have a pretty correct understanding of how these genes are working. I believe there is more than just one way to mark babies from breedings such as the above, I just wanted to get everyone else's feel for it and what they are using to mark their babies.

I am pretty happy with marking all babies that are perfect <or close to perfect> motleys as motleys het stripe, and when in the case of breeding my two motleys that HAVE TO be het stripe I have marked those motleys as possible het stripe. What fun when these two patterns mix eh?

Please post more results of your breedings or even just your feelings on how babies should be marked

Rebecca

 

[wade]

By breeding a Motley, to a Stripe, you should get all Motley phenotype babies ... be the Motley pattern perfect circles, or ovals, or q-tipped, or "striped"(striped version of the Motley pattern), or a combination of any of these.
Whichever Motley pattern you get is just luck of the draw (so to speak).



One term (for babies from the cross of a Motley to a Stripe) is "Motley het Stripe". Unless they are newbies, etc.... most people know what Motley het Stripe means (Motley phenotype but are het Motley & het Stripe). Although, you may get some critiques, on that, since that term does not say het Motley ~and~ het Stripe.

Another term used is "Motley-Stripe". This term can still confuse people since they might not know if you mean Motley-Stripe (as in Motley phenotype but het Motley and het Stripe) or if you mean Striped Motley (the striped form of the Motley pattern).

Personally, I plan to use either term but, will, also, add something along the following line:
Motley phenotype but are, actually, het for Motley ~and~ Stripe.



If the Motley phenotype babies are from the breeding of a Motley, to a Stripe, they are not "Motley-Motley" ... they would be het Motley and het Stripe (Motley-Stripe).



... Unless the Motley were het Stripe (a Motley-Stripe), of course.

See if you can split this!

 

[Pasodama]

See if you can split this!

Sure ... here you go.

 

[Pasodama]

I have posted the following (breeding pairs, involving the Motley &/or Stripe genes, & what the resulting offspring would be), before, but will go ahead and post it here too (should it prove useful).
----------------------------------

Motley and Stripe share the same locus - with the Motley phenotype being dominant over the Stripe phenotype.

Not sure if I left out any combos (of Motley, Stripe, Motley-Stripe, & hets) but hope this helps:


Motley x Non-patterned = All offspring het Motley

Stripe x Non-patterned = All offspring het Stripe

Motley x Motley = All offspring Motley

Stripe X Stripe = All offspring Stripe

Stripe x het Motley = 1. het Stripe 2. Motley-Stripe (Motley phenotype but het for both Motley and Stripe)

Stripe x Motley = All offspring Motley-Stripe (Motley phenotype but het for both Motley and Stripe)

Motley x het Stripe = 1. het Motley 2. Motley-Stripe (#2 - Motley phenotype but het for both Motley and Stripe)

Motley-Stripe x Motley = 1. Motley 2. Motley-Stripe (#1 & #2 - Without being able to distinguish the Motleys, from the Motley-Stripes, all should be considered 50% poss. het Stripe)

Motley-Stripe x Stripe = 1. Motley-Stripe (Motley phenotype but het for both Motley and Stripe) 2. Stripe

Motley-Stripe x Non-patterned = 1. het Stripe 2. het Motley (Note: All offpsring will be either het Motley or het Stripe but not both)

Motley-Stripe x het Motley = 1. Motley-Stripe (Motley phenotype but het for both Motley and Stripe) 2. Motley (#1 & #2 - Without being able to distinguish the Motleys, from the Motley-Stripes, all should be considered 50% poss. het Stripe 3. het Motley 4. het Stripe (#3 & #4 - all are either het Motley or het Stripe but not both)

Motley-Stripe x het Stripe = 1. Stripe 2. Motley-Stripe (Motley phenotype but het for both Motley and Stripe) 3. het Motley 4. het Stripe (#3 & #4 - all are either het Motley or het Stripe but not both)

Motley-Stripe x Motley-Stripe = 1 Motley-Stripe (Motley phenotype but het for both Motley and Stripe) 2. Motley (#1 & #2 - Without being able to distinguish the Motleys, from the Motley-Stripes, all should be considered 50% poss. het Stripe) 3. Stripe

 

[tbtusk]

Motley-Stripe x Motley = 1. Motley 2. Motley-Stripe (#1 & #2 - Without being able to distinguish the Motleys, from the Motley-Stripes, all should be considered 50% poss. het Stripe)

This is how I would mark them as well.

It safer to do this since there is no way to be sure if a perfect motley, or a pin-striped, or otherwise "special" motley is a motley-stripe. There is an equal chance for the snake to be het stripe and het motley or homo motley

 

[pgr8dnlvr]

This is how I would mark them as well.

It safer to do this since there is no way to be sure if a perfect motley, or a pin-striped, or otherwise "special" motley is a motley-stripe. There is an equal chance for the snake to be het stripe and het motley or homo motley

So what are you saying here, if you bred a motley stripe <for interest say a q-tip type looking pattern> to a definitely motley and ended up with a bunch of perfect motley looking babies, what are you going to put on that deli cup when it comes time to sell? Motley ph stripe? Possible het Motley/Stripe? or??

In my case I would probably mark as the motley ph stripe since this is what they look like and what the averae "joe blow" on the street will recognize as motley, but will I go blue in the face trying to tell the background of the snakes to everyone or simply direct them to the parents pages on the American Cornsnake Registry.... lol

Rebecca

 

[tbtusk]

If I bred a motley to a motley het stripe (a motley-stripe) I would label all the hatchlings, regardless of their patterns, as motleys 50% PH stripe, just as you said.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

If you are doing Motley-Stripe x Motley, ethically, in my opinion, I think you must label all Motley offspring as possible het Stripe since you can not 100% identify by phenotype which is Motley-Stripe and which is Motley. To some, mixing Motley and Stripe is a big no-no and they absolutely do not want one or the other in their colonies.

Case in point...Several years ago I purchased a beautiful female as a Stripe...Later I found out, through breeding trials, she was a Motley-Stripe. She was one of those Motley-Stripe that it took very close inspection by an experienced eye to identify her as what she was as opposed to a Stripe. I wouldn't have bought her had I known she was a Motley-Stripe or even had a chance of being one.

 

[Susan]

I'm one of those people that like to use the "motley het stripe" nomenclature when dealing with a snake that has one of each gene simply because it states that it has the motley pattern, but is carrying the stripe gene. For all the motleys from a pairing of motley het stripe with the same or a homozygous motley, I use motley 50% or 66% het stripe, depending upon which it is. I also prefer to use the terms "striped motley" or "pin-striped motley" when dealing with that particular motley phenotype. I am avoiding using motley/stripe or motley-stripe anymore as that only leads to confusion.

And one thing that seems to lead to confusion is that some people think that if the snake is motley het stripe (het motley het stripe), it should have or is more likely to have the striped motley phenotype. That is an incorrect assessment. I originally thought that, but that was before I has been proven that the motley gene is dominant over the stripe gene when they are paired. You can have fully pin-striped motleys that are homozygous motley and perfect hurricane-type motleys that are het stripe, and every combination in between for both genetic make-ups.

So Rebecca, just because you didn't get any pin-striped motleys doesn't mean that you didn't fulfill the Mendelian genetic equation. Yes, you got a fewer percentage of homozygous stripes than predicted, but that's the way the odds go. You still probably have about 50% of the entire clutch that is het motley het stripe. You just don't know which ones, and will only be able to tell them apart by test breeding.

 

[Pasodama]

Why I am not getting more mandelean results with my pair of motleys het stripe - 23 babies produced, patternwise all motley except for two perfect stripe.

I missed the part where the breeding, in this particular question, is of a Motley het Stripe to a Motley het Stripe (I was thinking it was of a Motley bred to a Stripe).

BTW In this case (when a Motley het Stripe is bred to a Motley het Stripe) ... I would label any offspring, with the Motley phenotype, as Motley 50% poss. het Stripe (or, actually, it could be labeled as Motley 66% poss. het Stripe).

visually both the motleys and motley-stripes appear to be motleys, and it looks like you are getting 3/4 motley, when in fact you are getting half motley-stripes but can not tell the difference between them and the motleys visually.

This is very true.
To go with this, I'd like to to add something else, that you, also, need to keep in mind.
When percentages (for a certain cross) state that expected offspring would be (for example), 1/4 Motley, 1/4 Stripe, 1/2 Motley-Stripe ... it does not mean that you will get 1/4 Motley, 1/4 Stripe, and 1/2 Motley-Stripe in the entire clutch.
Those are the percentages, of chance, for each ~individual~ egg/offspring.
IOW Each individual egg would (in this example) have a one, in four (25%), chance of yielding a Motley offspring .. a one, in four, (25%) chance of yielding a Stripe offspring ... and a one, in two, (50%) chance of yielding a Motley-Stripe offspring. What you get depends on that roulette wheel of chance.

 

[KJUN]

> Just wondering if any more has been found out about how motley and stripe work? Are they on the same allele? Has anyone figured out more rules as to how these genes act?

Same locus (hence same gene spot), but different alleles. Both are recessive to the normal pattern. Motley is basically dominant to stripe. Basically.

> I know that motley/stripes are essentially het motley AND stripe, I know that motley is the more dominant trait and it often covers stripe completely, I know that snakes that LOOK like perfect motleys can hide the stripe gene.

Correct, but striped-motleys aren't always het for stripe, either. That phenotype is not dependent upon the "hidden" stripe allele being at all present.

> Why I am not getting more mandelean results with my pair of motleys het stripe - 23 babies produced, patternwise all motley except for two perfect stripe. No motley stripes.

That is NOT uncommon at all. Most of my motleys het stripe show not striping pattern. The rumor that you should be able to usually ID a motley het stripe is completely bogus. Pure BS from people who base observation of too few samples. What you are seeing is NORMAL for some crosses.

> How to label my motley looking babies from pairings of motley and stripe parents <ie. motley het stripe if they look perfect motley, or het motley/stripes. or just plain motley and not mentioning stripe unless specifically selling to people I know are interested in breeding...>

To me, I'd label them as motleys or motleys het stripe. Both are correct assuming they are definite het for stripes (i.e., one of the motley parents was a stripe or a normal het stripe.

 

[pgr8dnlvr]

Wahoo! Looks like I did have things right1 Yay!

Thanks so much guys, this site is THE BEST!!

Rebecca

 

[El Jefe]

To avoid some of the confusion, I often list the adults of those particular breeding so people know what is going on. If they don't care then it doesn't matter what label is on them anyway.

 

[paulh]

Another way to do it is to mark both the phenotype and genotype.

Phenotype: motley
Genotype: motley//stripe