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Lavender X Sunkissed (hatched!)

Serpwidgets

New member
I got 14 of them. Hooray! :)
Zammy_x_Trance_0604_01.JPG

Interestingly, they all have "key" (upper right) head patterns, some with the "monoclops smiley" (center) minor variation. (Totally unlike the mother's oddball head pattern.)

Also, plenty of "aztec" influence showed up, which was expected since the dad is a Lavender.
 
oh~~~~~~~~~~


Sunkissed Hypo Lavender~~~!!!!!!

Nice project you have there!!

It would be even better to get the motley/striped/bloodred (either one) into the project~~ LOL
I know...I am greedy....lol...

Congrats on the batch!
 
Cool. My clutch of the same still has almost a month to go on it... :)

-Kat
 
Congratulations! I think a Sunkissed Lavender will be great looking. I want some! Wouldn’t it be cool if one of these hypo type lavender crosses gave us the blue corn of our dreams! I have been trying to get my Sunkissed female bred to a Striped Lavender for a second clutch, but it hasn’t happened yet. I am keeping my fingers crossed, because the Sunkissed have such rich colors that they will make a very colorful Hypo type Lavender.
 
Aztec Pattern

Serpwidgets said:
Also, plenty of "aztec" influence showed up, which was expected since the dad is a Lavender.

Does the Lavender male have any Aztec patterning on him at all?

It sure seems like the Aztec pattern may be a co-dominant gene like some of the pattern genes in boas. Hatchlings that are Het Aztec have some pattern, and homo Aztecs have radical pattern. The ones without any Aztec gene are normal patterned. This seems to be what I am getting in my Aztec clutches.

It would be cool if this was the case, but it may just be selective breeding that we can't get rid of, but who wants too!
 
Does the Lavender male have any Aztec patterning on him at all?

His has NO aztecing at all, mine has it in spades.

We both got ours as adults at the same time, same place, for an utter steal pricewise (though his was sexed as a female)... There's a potential that our two are related, but we really don't know. :) If I were to go by the headpatterns produced in both males' offspring, there's definitely similarities. Both tend to throw 'smileyface' corns (you can see one in the pic).

The females we each used are half-siblings too, so his clutch and mine are definitely related. What sucks is he got the tame sunkissed (a rarity!)... :p :)

-Kat
 
My hope is that the female Sunkissed Lavs would be as pretty as the males. The male "standard" hypolavs are awesome, but the females seem somewhat disappointing.

Maybe they'll all be different from the standard hypolavs. That would be sweet. :D

I figure having that Sunkissed feeding response (you know, the way they practically leap out of the box at you, sniffing everywhere for food?) will be a plus, too. ;)

The male (Lavender) has like one non-standard saddle. I wouldn't guess "lavender" at all from just seeing his pattern. His offspring last year, from a nice evenly-patterned snow, also had the same aztecing as these. I have to wonder if the aztec is actually a side-effect of the same thing that causes the lavender coloration. Has anyone come up with a line of lavs that don't produce any aztec offspring?

Simon, yeah the plan this year was Pewter X Sunkissed, but the pewter male was already a bit overextended so I went with this "sure-fire" lav male this year.
 
If I'm not mistaken, I believe Don Soderberg told me that he has bred two Aztecs together in the past and gotten some of the resulting offspring to emerge with no aztec pattern whatsoever. If my memory is accurate, then that would eliminate the aztec pattern as being determined by mendelian factors as we currently understand them.

Such a pairing resulting in normal babies precludes a recessive, dominant, or codominant gene from being the causative agent, I believe. Maybe someone could contact Don and ask him first hand, but I'm fairly certain those were his findings.
 
Perhaps there's a gene component that's more like an exclusive-or than a straight or or and. (XOR vs OR or AND). For those non-computer geeks in the group, an XOR-type gene concept would mean that the trait would only show up if one and only one of the mutants was present. Both normal and both mutant would yield normal results.

I have no idea if this is the case, and I don't recall anything like this in any genetics stuff I've studied, but it's an interesting concept to think about...

-Kat
 
Darin Chappell said:
If I'm not mistaken, I believe Don Soderberg told me that he has bred two Aztecs together in the past and gotten some of the resulting offspring to emerge with no aztec pattern whatsoever. If my memory is accurate, then that would eliminate the aztec pattern as being determined by mendelian factors as we currently understand them.

Such a pairing resulting in normal babies precludes a recessive, dominant, or codominant gene from being the causative agent, I believe. Maybe someone could contact Don and ask him first hand, but I'm fairly certain those were his findings.

If the Aztec Pattern gene is co-dominant or maybe semi-dominant then if two Aztecs were bred together that were Het Aztecs then 25% of the offspring would be normal. This is what we see with the Dominant Hypo gene in boas and many other dominant pattern genes in boas. They are an all or nothing dominant gene or semi-dominant in the het form, and dominant specimens are produced when two hets are bred together..

If you breed two Het Hypo Boas together then you will get 75% Hypos and 25% normals. If you breed a Het Hypo Boa to a normal then you will get 50% Hypos and 50% normals. A Homo Hypo boas bred to a Het Hypo will produce 50% Homos and 50% hets but you can’t tell them apart.

The Super Hypos and Super Jungle Boas which are Homo for their gene will produce all Hypos or Jungles when bred to anything. The Jungle Boa is a dominate pattern trait and when in the Super or Homo form, the pattern is very dramatic. A Het Jungle, can look almost like a normal, except for a few markers, or can be half Jungle patterned. This is very similar to what we are seeing in the Aztec Corns.

You can bred two Het Jungles together, which are co-dominant pattern gene, which may be acting like the Aztec pattern, and get normals in the clutch or litter. We have never identified a dominant gene in corns, but there are several in boas. If the Aztec pattern is dominant, this would explain why it pops up so often and you can’t hardly get rid of it. All corns that have a little unusual pattern on them would not necessarily be carrying the Aztec Pattern, but if one has only one little Aztec pattern and it is the Dominant Aztec gene then it would be dominant and pass the pattern onto its offspring.

I am totally speculating at this time, because of my interest in boas, but I do know there are other dominant pattern genes in colubrids as well. The Striped gene in California King Snake is dominant and so is the Aberrant Pattern in them as well. If there are several dominant pattern genes in boas and they also exist in colubrids then it is very possible to exist in corns as well. I have no idea if the zigzag or zipper Corns are the same as the Aztec, but there are several Jungle Boa imitators that are not dominant, but cause by something else. So far I have never bred an Aztec Corn to anything and not got some Aztecs. I have bred Aztec to Aztec and got some normals.
 

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I am wrong more times than I am right it seems.

I am learning a lot from the boa world, but it is much harder to play over there. They take things much too seriously. I guess it is because of the money involved. They blow very easily if they are questioned. They have me walking on egg shells.

Corn Snake people are much more open minded about new possibilities and much more open for debate. If you questions a big time boas person, they try to squash you like an annoying bug.
 
I know what you mean. However, I don't really care how "big" or "small" someone may or may not be in the herp community when discussing issues. Things are either correctly stated or they are not; it's as simple as that.

However ...

One of the best of life's little lessons I ever learned came to me when studying formal debate several years ago. My instructor told me:

"Always have the courage of your convictions to point out the error of the other man ... but always have the humility to admit that you might just BE the other man in this instance!"

:cool:
 
Re: Aztec Pattern

ecreipeoj said:
It may just be selective breeding that we can't get rid of, but who wants too!

Well, I think that those full blown aztecs are beautiful (like the lavender you posted), but I HATE it when an animal has a perfect dorsal pattern except for 1 or 2 places.

In that case, I'd love to be able to breed this out of the animals. For instance, I have a female that has some undesirable (in my estimation) pattern but the het genes I need. I paired her with a perfectly patterned male (no zigzagging or aztecing what-so-ever) so I'm hoping most of the babies will look like him rather than her.

Cornsnakes should come either full aztec or not at all. But that's just my opinion of course. :D
 
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