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Live or F/T?

snakewispera snr said:
I've never met anyone on here that I constantly disagree with, but you seem to be the exception...I'm sure you post and don't think,first.....
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Given that this is the only topic I've had major contribution in, it seems that you are quick to make conclusions based upon very little data.

Who are you do you even own a snake...I don't know. So your opinion is worthless to me...Facts are what I am looking for, or evidence.....I was going to pull you up on freezing to death being painful but I decided not to. But as we're at it..... Being cold is uncomfortable not painful...
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The University of Minnesota disagrees with you -

http://www.seagrant.umn.edu/coastal_communities/hypothermia

A tingling pain, especially in extremities, is very often a sign of hypothermia. When you can't feel pain anymore it has become extreme.
 
Given that this is the only topic I've had major contribution in, it seems that you are quick to make conclusions based upon very little data.

I've only seen you on this thread (until a few minutes ago) But you are so opinionated your right, and won't see what the majority are trying to say.


The University of Minnesota disagrees with you -
Do they...Do they even know you...I only got your word on that...Unless they expelled you in your first term....

A tingling pain, especially in extremities, is very often a sign of hypothermia. When you can't feel pain anymore it has become extreme.

A tingling pain is not what will kill you...It's uncomfortable...... When you can't feel pain anymore...It's not a painful death which is what I said
 
It seems to be that when I use to spend too much time out at the barn in the winters, it wasn't the freezing that was painful, but the re-warming of frozen fingers, toes, nose & ears that hurt like the dickens.
 
The majority are not always right though.

I personally do consider freezing tiny pinks to be humane, so long as they are placed in a container where heat-loss is what will rapidly kill them, without the pain of contact with a frozen surface. Heat-loss from air is not near as painful as heat-loss from contact with something frozen. Being barefoot in snow, for example, *burns*.
 
Shiari said:
The majority are not always right though.

I personally do consider freezing tiny pinks to be humane, so long as they are placed in a container where heat-loss is what will rapidly kill them, without the pain of contact with a frozen surface. Heat-loss from air is not near as painful as heat-loss from contact with something frozen. Being barefoot in snow, for example, *burns*.
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You can't compare that though.... as dogs and cats both are out in the snow and don't have a problem with snow burning. A mouse would be similiarly equipped in my mind to them rather than us.
 
Having SCUBA dived in 34 degree water under the ice I can personally attest to the fact that yes it is painful (however, not unbearably so) to have your flesh exposed to something that cold for an extended period of time. The "ice cream" headaches are what really stink :D

Now with that said, you loose heat 25 times faster in water than you will in air at the same temperature. Would I rather die in 34 degree water or 34 degree air…quite frankly, I think both would be a terrible way to die.

Regards,
Steve
 
shed'n my skin said:
It could be true constricting them is good exercise for a gravid female, to me it just seems there's less dangerous ways to condition a gravid girl - a proven female producer is probably the snake in my collection I'd be least likely to want to risk feeding live to.
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There are other ways to exercise a snake and build muscle tone, but it's not an "either or" scenario. The snake will benefit from both.

As I've stated previously, I was in the f/t only camp until I had a snake die from egg-binding and did some research on it. During that research I got a couple e-mails from breeders on another site (KS) who told me in private they feed live as it produces stronger snakes. There were a few who even posted it publicly there. I also found the reference in Kathy's book to the breeder who saw substantial reduction after switching his collection to live.

That's why I switched my husbandry.

I'm sorry that posting a non mainstream point of view caused such a ruckus, but I'm not sorry that I posted it - other people need to see the varying points of view and make decisions for themselves.

I also posted that I'm only doing it every other feeding and only with females intended to breed the following year who don't constrict a dangled f/t mouse, so I am taking every precaution I can to give the constriction exercise with f/t prey if possible.

That doesn't seem to matter, there is a religious like zeal that feeding live is always bad and can't have any benefits. I'm not suggesting those keepers are bad keepers, I just have a different point of view.
 
ssmith_1187 said:
Having SCUBA dived in 34 degree water under the ice I can personally attest to the fact that yes it is painful (however, not unbearably so) to have your flesh exposed to something that cold for an extended period of time. The "ice cream" headaches are what really stink :D

Now with that said, you loose heat 25 times faster in water than you will in air at the same temperature. Would I rather die in 34 degree water or 34 degree air…quite frankly, I think both would be a terrible way to die.

Regards,
Steve
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Again, I don't think you can compare the two... mice in the wild don't bundle up like we do... they can handle much colder temperatures than we can due to the fur coat that nature provided them with.

I wonder how cold the ice dips are at some gyms... I use to love pludging into it after a 20 min session in the sauna.
 
I don't necessarily disagree with you.

My only point was, and I apologize that I failed to make it, was the pain associated with (and when it started) being in water that is 34 degrees and air of the same temperature.

I would think the ice baths would be right around 33-35 degrees depending upon the amount of ice.

Regards,
Steve
 
FunkyRes said:
I'm sorry that posting a non mainstream point of view caused such a ruckus, but I'm not sorry that I posted it - other people need to see the varying points of view and make decisions for themselves.

I also posted that I'm only doing it every other feeding and only with females intended to breed the following year who don't constrict a dangled f/t mouse, so I am taking every precaution I can to give the constriction exercise with f/t prey if possible.

That doesn't seem to matter, there is a religious like zeal that feeding live is always bad and can't have any benefits. I'm not suggesting those keepers are bad keepers, I just have a different point of view.
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There is a huge difference between someone who has kept snakes for a while and is careful (and I am including you in this group, Funky- I feel I know you well enough from the other forum to believe you are careful and care a great deal about your collection )- and somebody that is a brand new keeper coming along and deciding it's OK. The concern is that the newer people who don't know any better will assume it's OK to feed live if they see it being recommended. Already today there is a post by a new member that said they have decided to feed live after reading these threads. I think the "religious zeal" is intended to prevent mishaps for the latter group. I have said I feed live to mine that refuse F/T and I think so have a couple of others. Can't speak for bigger breeders except I know at least some order F/T from rodentro and TMF... that's probably the most economical way to sustain a large collection unless you have a big mouse breeding operation along with the snakes.
 
shed'n my skin said:
Already today there is a post by a new member that said they have decided to feed live after reading these threads.
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Then that new poster did not read the part where I stated I recommend against it except under the specific circumstance of a breeding female that won't constrict f/t.

I don't think suppressing information is the right way to deal with people who do not read an entire position.
 
I've been keeping snakes since I was 10. I'm in my mid-30's.
Not that it matters, but growing up - Bob Stebbins (the Stebbins - one of the greatest field herpers and researches we've ever seen) was kind of enough to take me under his wing on all things herpetological.

My posting here may be relatively new, don't mistake that for newbie. The herp world is bigger than a single forum, and many who genuinely are experts avoid forums like an atheist avoids sunday school.

I also don't claim to be an "expert". Never did.
 
We try to suppress instant experts...
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Does that fall under the guise of "Mind Control" and if so...didn’t the CIA fail miserably at that with their experiments with lysergic acid diethylamide in the 1950’s and 60's :D

Regards,
Steve
 
shed'n my skin said:
There is a huge difference between someone who has kept snakes for a while and is careful and somebody that is a brand new keeper coming along and deciding it's OK. The concern is that the newer people who don't know any better will assume it's OK to feed live if they see it being recommended. Already today there is a post by a new member that said they have decided to feed live after reading these threads. I think the "religious zeal" is intended to prevent mishaps for the latter group. I have said I feed live to mine that refuse F/T and I think so have a couple of others.
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I very much agree. It's pretty scary and dangerous to feed live. It's not at all for people who come along and decide, "Hey, I'll try live today" or "Let's feed my brand new snake a live mouse." Nope. It saddens me to know that a lot of people are feeding live and doing so for their own gain and not their snakes. Once you start feeding bigger mice, the problem only gets bigger... their teeth only get bigger. These live mice are fighting for their lives'! Biting, clawing, scratching for life. If National Geographic can show you zebras chasing lepords, I'm sure even the skillful serpent can meet it's match. :) Especially being someone who feeds live, I still think f/t is the smartest way to go for some (if not most) snakes.

starsevol said:
Garrett, you may well just have the rare snake that doesnt take frozen. If I were you I would work trying to convert, but if that's what he wants there's not a whole lot you can do.

I think personally that the reason pet shops feed live, and tell people to feed live, is that it keeps people coming back every week and buying something. They don't care about the snakes welfare as much as door traffic. Rodentpro and TMF puts a huge dent in their bottom line.
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Amen! Especially being from a little town, they definitely want their door traffic (good term, btw). And I don't quite know what Sampson's deal is— maybe he's just picky like his human counterpart. lol. The biggest issue I've had is he's killed three times to kill; I don't know what that's about either. Someone posted somewhere that it's because something in the process went wrong and offering a second usually does the trick. However, this didn't work with my snake. I ended up flushing two dead mice instead of one. It actually hurt my feelings for him to just kill. It was just violent and pointless. He's not aggressive; he's been around tons of children and tons of adults and has never bitten anyone. So far that's been the biggest problem I've had with feeding live: unnecessary death. :(

Well, to get back on topic.... I really do think that you make an excellent point Starsevol! This isn't a decision anyone should make lightly or uninformed (actually, in my opinion, it shouldn't even be a decision... your snake will let you know what it will and won't accept). No one should just read a few well put together posts and then simply draw their own conclusions. Anyone can write, not everyone can think— feeding live is a big deal.

Now I'm not even going to touch on the subject of freezing live mice (although I just did. lol). Maybe I'm sensitive. There is absolutely NO way I could do that to a mouse, rodent or not. You have a heart... use it. ;) I couldn't stun or prekill food either. No way. Nothing against the people who do this, my stomach just isn't made for it. :p

From my interpretation, most people posting might get a little crazed (like about cohabing) but they all mean well. We are all here because of our love for snakes, we just want to see one another succeed! Right every one?:cheers:
 
One final post on the risk issue.
If we never fed live because the minimal risk is too much despite possible benefits, then no one should breed corns.

Breeding corns is risky, particularly to the female. Egg binding happens, even to the best of breeders. Egg binding does not always result in death, but it can and does.

It's a risk we take, and we take it for several reasons - in no particular order:

* It's fun and fascinating and educational
* It makes morphs, including poly gene morphs, readily available
* It allows the pet trade to boom without massive commercial collection
* It provides a supply of pets that are far less likely to have parasites

We do put our girls at risk when we breed them, but the benefits outweigh the risk, and while complications that result in death are rare, they are more common than mouse injuries causing the death of a snake in a live feeding if the feeding is properly monitored.

Of course, precautions need to be taken with breeding. A sick or skinny female should not be bred. It's a good idea to wait until a female is at least two years old and 250g (some go by the rule of 3s) before breeding, and you should not produce more young than you have room and money to properly house and feed until they find good homes, which can take awhile if you don't have connections.

But even taking those into consideration, it's still a risk, is it not? It's a risk we are willing to take because the benefits of breeding outweigh the risks.
 
I agree with most of what you have written...But how many newbs will be breeding this year, compared to how many will try feeding live after reading your thread....BTW you still haven't explained to me how you will stop that split second bite.... I jumped in on this thread asking that question...You still haven't told me how it's done....
 
snakewispera snr said:
I agree with most of what you have written...But how many newbs will be breeding this year, compared to how many will try feeding live after reading your thread....BTW you still haven't explained to me how you will stop that split second bite.... I jumped in on this thread asking that question...You still haven't told me how it's done....
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I never claimed I could stop a split second bite.

If a snake is not hungry and not willing to defend itself, I can pull a mouse off of a snake that is attacking it, though I've never had to do that.

I can (and do) remove a mouse from a feeding where the snake isn't interested in eating.
 
I can pull a mouse off of a snake that is attacking it

Can pull a mouse off of a snake that is being attacked
 
I do feed exclusively thawed prey (who'd have guessed,right? LOL).
I had 2 incidents with egg binding.
The first was in 2005, I thought I had 2 males and temporarily housed them together after a rack nearly went up in flames. Seeing as how I had 2 "males" I never provided a lay box. I truly believe that it was my failure to provide a lay box that caused the female to egg bind.

The second time was last year. The eggs were high up and the female expelled them over time and recovered WONDERFULLY. I still feed her only thawed food, BUT I also swim her (and any other female that I think needs it) in the tub 2-3 times a week in water 78-82 degrees. Swimming does wonders for them and even though its a pain, the results are well worth it.
 
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