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Locality Questions

B

Billybobob

very unactive member
Not quite sure if this is the place where i should post this but here we go.
I know that locality corns are not as popular as locality's of other snakes but all i know about as far as locality corns go is the okeetee or jasper county corns. Never really had an intrest in locality corns but just wanted to get some info on other locality's because there has to be more than just okeetee. I am asking just so i can know about locality's never really looked into them before. Pics would be a plus too
 
I don't have a pic of a locality okeetee, but try the search option and I'm sure you'll find one. The other locality is the Miami, which has red saddles on a gret/tan backgoudn. As far as I know, the actual locality Miami aren't as common as the locality okeetee. Most are "Miami phase" which means they have that appearance.. If you really want the "crem de la crem" of the okeetee world, I'd do a search on abbotts okeetees. :)
 
Not really a market for locality corns

Locality guttatas aren't very prevalent in the pet trade. Most hobbyists (especially pet owners) don't really care much about locality details as they select animals based upon color and/or pattern preferences. (Search the old threads for Locality Okeetees and you'll quickly see my point. ;) This becomes even more evident if you are used to dealing with collectors of species from the SW United States, such as Alterna and Pyros, that insist on documented down to the N-th degree for locality preciseness.

Technically, any wild caught specimen which has been captured in natural habitat could be considered a locality specimen. Whether or not the majority of a similar local population would exhibit any special appearance trait is a bit trickier question to answer. It would require the collection of numerous specimens in order to prove the existence of an appearance mutation. Even in isolated locality populations, variance is present in even the most sought after examples. Does the trait differentiate the specimen or make it more appealing? If so, as with Okeetee and Miami, then it will likely be sought out by serious collectors.
 
A littel clarification

Maybe my post wasn't clear i know about okeetees and jasper county locality's. I was asking about other locality's that are not so famous. oh and is Miami even really a locality? I all ways thought that Miamis are just a color phase and not a true locality, were any actually collected in Miami? i know that any WC snake can be called a locality specimen but i want to know about known locality's other than okeetee and jasper county. i know that their are more out there but it is really hard to find any info on them. thanks for your replies
 
Would everglades/rosy rats be considered a locality morph? With all the scientific name jumbling that going on right now, I'm not sure if they are classed as separate species.
 
Sisuitl said:
Would everglades/rosy rats be considered a locality morph? With all the scientific name jumbling that going on right now, I'm not sure if they are classed as separate species.
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They would be, but they're not a guttata. They're an obsoleta (Elaphe obsoleta rossalleni).

By that token, I suppose one might say that Upper Keys corns are a locality, along with Miami and Okeetee.
 
At one time the rosy rat was Elaphe guttata rosacea, but just like the original everglades rats the gene pool has been invaded by the nominate race. I believe that is why the upper keys corn is protected now. I think the everglades rat in the wild is too far gone, as drier habitat became widespread, the yellow rats moved in and intergraded with rossalleni, a real orange everglades in the wild is a rare find these days. :cheers:
 
CAV said:
Those are the only two locales that are of any consequence.
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Maybe to you but i am sure that there are people who think that other locality's are just as important. Like the upper keys or rosy ratsnake i really was not thinking about them when i first posted.

Does any one have any info on the difference of individuals from different islands. And i seem to remember a locality of corn that got more black pigment as it aged. i believe they were found on or near a mountain(no idea where). Really ugly by most peoples standards but i thought they had something special.
 
um...nevermind. I'll let Gary handle that one.

What he means is that the Okeetee and the Miami are really the only widely recognized localities that have actually been given their own morph, even though they are technically just considered normals. I'm sure you could go to some backwoods forest in BFE Alabama, catch a corn, and say "I have a BFE corn" but the only one who will care is you. Thats what he means by saying these are the only ones of consequence. There really isn't any other locality that will be widely recognized or sought after.
 
That wasn't really my "opinion"......

You asked a question and I answered it. Don't confuse locality with genetic variation. The two varieties you named are more likely subspecies (or intergrades) than simple localities. They are much like the slowinskii, meahllmorum, and intermontanus subspecies. DNA testing has revealed genetic differences in these groups as opposed to a simple locality "look".

Here is a little reading that is more in depth
 
and Upper Keys...forgot about them too (seems most people have been....wonder why that is...), though they don't have the popularity of the Okeetee or Miami.
 
Well, if that gold corn proves out her kids will be a locality, as she is mated with a wild caught male from the same area.

I thought the christmas hypo gene came from some island, but I don't know if the animals in captivity could be considered locale animals from that island or if they were outcrossed to other lines. In my own humble opinion, island based populations are much easier to define as a strict locale, as there is not a lot of gene exchange going on with other groups, and you have a nice arbitrary boundary. :)
 
CAV said:
You asked a question and I answered it. Don't confuse locality with genetic variation. The two varieties you named are more likely subspecies (or intergrades) than simple localities. They are much like the slowinskii, meahllmorum, and intermontanus subspecies. DNA testing has revealed genetic differences in these groups as opposed to a simple locality "look".
Click to expand...

You didn't really answer my question at all in either of your post i said that i wasn't intrested in any info on okeetees and thats all you gave. And the original miamis were just purchased in a pet shop near miamis would not call them locals. As for the 2 i mentioned the rosy rat snake and the keys corn are the same thing not two different snakes.

so if anyone has any info on any of the questions asked pleas respond. oh and when i was asking about the differences of corns from different islands i was referring mainly to keys corns.
 
Again....I think you received a clear and detailed answer to your question

Hmmmm.....

By "the two varieties you mentioned" I was referring to the "upper keys or rosy ratsnake.....and.....a locality of corn that got more black pigment."

I'm not sure what you're referring to with the Okeetee reference, I only used it as an example. Perhaps you don't really read either of my posts??? ;)
 
Billybobob said:
Maybe my post wasn't clear i know about okeetees and jasper county locality's. I was asking about other locality's that are not so famous. oh and is Miami even really a locality? I all ways thought that Miamis are just a color phase and not a true locality, were any actually collected in Miami?
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Sure, but I only know of a few breeders that work with strictly locality Miamis. I have a Wild Caught Miami female, and I do know where she was collected. I don't want to post the exact location, but it was in the Cutler Ridge area (part of Miami.) I've heard from more than one person that this is a good place to find them, so maybe it's the equivalent of Jasper Co., for Miami Corns that have some silver and red, with black borders. Here's a photo of my '100% locality' Miami. The other 3 Miamis I have are also locality blood, but not wild caught (they are captive bred). I think it's probably good to have at least one wild caught specimen, if you are really trying to keep a locality breeding colony, to have some genetic diversity. As far as I know, Miami Corns are not endangered. Obviously I don't advocate everyone collecting them as pets, but it is a strain that should be kept going by breeders. You can argue they are not as pretty as a Banded Hypo Miami with no tan and only silver, but they are beautiful in their own way. More importantly, it is a true locality with its own type.
 

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Just wanted to add that I recently saw some Locality Miami Phase Corns advertised that just days earlier had been advertised as caught/collected in SW Florida, but resembling Miami Phase, so be careful when buying things over the internet (as with any locality or morph.) SW Florida Corns are more tan. The silver is more specific to the Miami Corns, although they certainly are not 100% silver (anything over 75% is pretty good.)
 
Thanks larryg thats the kind of info i was looking for. Not like the rude remarkes that have been posted by some people.

And cav the othere corn that i was talking about was a full blood corn not an itergrade. frome what i remember they started with the normal coloring of corn snake as hachlings but as they aged they stated to get more black pigment on the lowwer half of their bodies i think the guy that colected them thought that they might be melinistic(spelling?). As far as the keys cornes being intergrades i belive that they sould still be a subspicies. But since there is a bit of a difference of an oppinon on that.
 
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