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morph breeding advice please, esp aztec

sachamama

New member
Hi, its Hana from the UK.. Its been a while since I posted here, busy winter.. Still, very nice to be back as this is such a great forum on corns.. I now have 7 of them, have to stop it there as space is limited.

Nevertheless, would love to give it a go at breeding and since as a dyslexic type I am hopeless with studying genetics to much depth, was hoping you could help me work out what would be most beneficial pairing. My aim would be to ideally have as attractive babies as possible, that I should not have difficulty finding new homes for. I think Id prefer to avoid making too many normals as I feel there is too much competition on the market.

So I have two adult females that I have cycled this winter,

a snow and a normal, not know hets unfortunately.

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and two gorgeous boys ready for action. One of them is anery aztec, the other is a big and juicy normal. I must admit, I hesitate to breed the normal for the aforementioned reasons.

Is it correct that for having aztec babies one aztec parent isnt enough? What am I likely to get if both girls were bred with the aztec? And are there any likely pleasant surprises with the normal? As I say, I just want to assure to have as sellable babies as possible - so I much appreciate your advise! Many thanks, Hana

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don't know if the belly may suggest any hets?
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Hiya,

If you were to breed the male anery motley (aztec) to the snow famale you would get;
All anery het for amel and motley.

In order to get the motley pattern the snow would need to be het for motley or stripe

If you breed the 2 normals together you might get a nice surprise out, it seems there are very few normals without hets around these days.
 
Hope thats meant as a compliment:)) Yes he is a big boy. Havent weight him for a while but will do just to let you know. I got him as a rescue (nothing wrong there just that previous owners didnt have time anymore to give him attention. He is about 8 yrs old we believe (they also rescued him). When I got him, looked up his size in Kathy Love's book and he definitely is well over the "normal" max size.

Even though, he doesnt like to eat anything bigger than a medium/large mouse, for a while he would only take chicks.

He is extremely sweet and placid.


Re aztecs:

Many thanks for the answer... So how would I get aztec babies, what parents do I need for that?
 
Oftentimes, Normals carry hets (unknown to the owner). This is not a 100% guarantee, since not all Normals do, but there is always a fair chance.
If you want to do some test breeding, the male Normal crossed with the Snow would be a good choice since Anery & Amel are two of the most common genes (and the Snow carries both of those).
'Course, you could always test breed the female Normal, with the Anery, to see if she carries the Anery gene.

Since you say that you'd rather not have Normal offspring ...
Just keep in mind that, if the Normals do not carry hets (or if whichever hets, that they may carry, are not compatible with those of the breeding partner/s), you will get all Normal offspring ... and ... while it is highly likely that you will get some morphs, if the Normals do have compatible hets (with their breeding partners), you would still get some Normal offspring as well.

If you want a guarantee, to not have Normal offspring (with the four individuals shown), you should breed the Aztec Anery to the Snow.
This will yield 100% Anery het Amel offspring.
If, by chance, the Anery is het Amel, you would get both Anery het Amel offspring and Snows.
Who knows, you may even get some offspring, with Aztec (or other aberrant) patterns, if the Snow carries the necessary genetic traits.

The Aztec pattern is not passed along (or inherited) in the same manner as simple recessives.
My guess is that it is polygenetic.
To get Aztec offspring, you could get some with just one Aztec parent (if the normal patterned partner happens to carry the necessary traits) but you have a better chance if both parents have the Aztec pattern.
 
To produce nice Aztecs, your best bet is to start with two nicely-patterned Aztec parents. This gives you the best chance at producing Aztec babies, although Aztec can show up out of the blue in any clutch. It is also possible to cross two extreme Aztec parents and end up with normally-patterned offspring. Aztec shouldn't be expected to produce results in the same way a proven genetic trait does. (Paraphrased from Cornsnake Morph Guide).
 
To produce nice Aztecs, your best bet is to start with two nicely-patterned Aztec parents. This gives you the best chance at producing Aztec babies, although Aztec can show up out of the blue in any clutch. It is also possible to cross two extreme Aztec parents and end up with normally-patterned offspring. Aztec shouldn't be expected to produce results in the same way a proven genetic trait does. (Paraphrased from Cornsnake Morph Guide).

Yep, there it's all said.

Aztec definitely is NOT a motley or anything like that.

I have two perfect and very extreme motley corns and they're from plain normal parents with no aberrant pattern what so ever. The breeder has even informed me that he has bred the same couple three times and every time there has been a few aztecs in the clutch!

So far no-one knows how aztec pattern is passed on. My opinion is, that it IS genetical - not caused by any incubation conditions etc, which also has been suspected. But the pattern could and most likely is caused by several genes of which we know nothing about - which are recessive, which co-dominant, allelic and what ever...

It COULD also be that some colour traits block the aztec traits. I'm not saying that is, but as far as we don't know any better, anything is possible. OR colour traits can affect on aztec traits some other way. Maybe there lies a reason to why aberrant patterning is quite common among lavenders for example?

Again I remind you all, I'm only letting my mind fly high. :D


But what comes to these breedings asked above:

I'd definitely use the aztec male on both females!

SNOW x ANERY AZTEC will produce all Aneries. If the male is het. for amelanistic (carries amelanistic trait) you'll get Snows too. All or most of the hatchilngs will probably be normally patterned, but there is a good chance of getting some very striking aberrant patterns and maybe even aztecs! We just don't know until we try!

NORMAL x ANERY AZTEC will produce all Normals if the female doesn't carry any other traits. As amelanistic and anerytristic traits are fairly common you have quite good chances of getting Aneries and maybe even Amels and Snows too. But this can't be calculated as we don't know what the parents are het for. And again you'll have pretty good chances of getting aberrant patterns and aztecs.

I can't promise you'll get any aztecs, but on the other hand you might get several. :D
 
I would do the Anery Aztec X Snow for sure, as well. Then if you get snows from that match you will know the Anery is het for Amel. You can do the two pairings together or not, but then I'd pair the Anery with the Normal. This way you can see if the Normal is het for Anery & possibly Amel. Only after you knew that would I try the two Normals together, but that's just me. Also if you are waiting another year to try the Normal male, I'd try him with the Snow that year as well since you know that one is homo Amel & Anery. On a side note, I totally share your pain! I'm dyslexic as well & trying to read anything on genetics can give you a major headache!
 
Hi all,

thank you very much for all your replies. Im learning heaps here!

On reflections, what I have read here brings me back to my original plan - I will most likely breed the aztec with both females. I just feel sorry for the normal male that he wont have much of a sex life this year - not sure if he ever had one! Nevertheless, I also like the idea of test breeding so will let him have a go next year :) It was the aztec who couldnt stop trying to get out of his viv this spring so he has earned the rights on all levels :)

So all your suggestions of what I will learn by breeding whom to whom were very informative and appreciated!

Marinneli, I would love to see the pics of your aztecs! They are my favourite morph really :)

I will keep you posted about my progress, especially curious about those surprises...
 
Sachamamma, do you have the book Cornsnake Morph Guide? You'd enjoy reading about neural crest migration! It will change the way you look at Zig zag and Aztec.
 
Sachamamma, do you have the book Cornsnake Morph Guide? You'd enjoy reading about neural crest migration! It will change the way you look at Zig zag and Aztec.


Not yet Nanci but will get it, as it sounds like it will come handy in the years to come. Until then, would you like to expand on what you mean? Makes me curious!
 
Sachamamma, do you have the book Cornsnake Morph Guide? You'd enjoy reading about neural crest migration! It will change the way you look at Zig zag and Aztec.



Just to let you know, Nanci, you were right, I looked up the website of its author and read the excerpt on the neural crest - very interesting, Im definitely going to buy the book. Thank you for the recommendation :)
 
Here's a picture of my Aztec Anery. :) I got her from Dakota Corns last year.

Mali001.jpg

Oh what a pretty girl, Em! She looks a bit young yet but perhaps we should get our two aztecs together one day ;) Thank you for sharing the picture, always love to see aztecs/zigzags or any "aberant" patterns... How old is your girl?
 
This is my lav, Lila. She's pretty zig-zagged. Yet another snake I haven't photographed in recent history...My tri-color hoggy is zig-zagged too.
 

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