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My corn is puking up worms.
- Thread starter xelda
- Start date
neferandrobin
i love my Maizie!
yikes!...so do we know what causes these worms?...you said it wasn't the food...
Skye
New member
Dear Xelda, I am very sorry for the pain and heartbreak you have gone through.
There have been a couple of errors in this thread, and there are a number of people wanting more information, so I will post a few facts and thoughts below. Please be aware that whilst the medical facts are correct, the opinions expressed are my own.
As soon as you said that there were worms in the mouth I was suspecting lungworms, but I wanted to await the necropsy results without seeing the worms myself.
Lungworms generally refers to Rhabdias spp. in snakes and Entomelas spp. in lizards. They have direct life cycles and eggs or larvae may be ingested in fecally contaminated food or water, or hatched larvae can gain access to the host by percutaneous (through unbroken skin) penetration.
Strongyloides (or Strongyles) are intestinal parasites that are very similar in appearance to the lungworm, but they exert their effects primarily through the gastrointestinal (GI) tract. Strongyloides also has a direct life cycle and eggs or larvae may also be ingested in fecally contaminated food or water, or hatched larvae can gain access to the host through intact skin. Diarrhoea and GI dysfunction are the most common symptoms, often in the presence of a mucus-laden stool. The infective larvae do migrate through the lungs, and, in rare cases, respiratory distress is noted.
The eggs of both parasites are very similar. Both can be diagnosed from fresh fecal samples. For those that have never prepared a sample to take to the vets for examination - I collect samples in clingwrap, and wrap them so that the fecal matter is not exposed to any air, hence preventing it from drying out. I then place that in a plastic bag which I also seal for hygienic reasons. Samples can be refrigerated overnight, but should never be frozen. The fresher the sample the better. My personal belief is that all reptiles should undergo fecal examinations initially and yearly as part of a regular check-up. Since I am fortunate to be able to perform my own fecal examinations and hence no cost is involved, I do fecals on all my reptiles twice a year.
Anyway, back to the lungworms - clinical signs are mild unless the infestation is heavy then the snake may present with signs of infection including lethargy, regurgitation, respiratory disease characterized by irregular breathing patterns, gaping, wheezing and production of excessive mucus, which contains the worms and their embryonated eggs. Unsanitary cage conditions are said to enhance a continuous infection. Diagnosis can also be made from looking at the mucus. Heavy loads can also lead to further problems.
Treatment of most worms can be performed with fenbendazole (Panacur) however, I have seen Oxfendazole recommended for these, and treatment is often disappointing. Ivermectin is another option.
It was suggested that round worms or tongue worms may be the problem in this case. Whilst it has already been shown that they are not present here, it would be also very unlikely to see them in oral mucus.
Neither lungworms or roundworms can be transmitted to humans and so zoonotic potential is not an issue. (Tongue worms are another matter entirely.)
With regards to treating with panacur - it is a very safe drug and treats most worms very effectively with no side effects to the reptile. If some of a collection needs treating then it is quite probable that the whole collection does, and so it may be best to just treat all animals. Remember that just because a fecal comes up clean doesn't guarantee that the animal has no worms, it could just be that no eggs were being shed at that time. Once treatment is commenced, the cage must be kept spotless under full quarantine conditions to prevent re-infection. I use three successive fecals as a sign of having eliminated the infection.
My advice to all parties involved here would be to get fecal examinations done on all your animals. Note that if you have lots of animals and can't afford to get that many fecals done - just mix up the poop from a few animals and pay for one examination. Even though you don't know which one produced the infected poop, if one needs treating that they probably all need treating anyway.
There have been a couple of errors in this thread, and there are a number of people wanting more information, so I will post a few facts and thoughts below. Please be aware that whilst the medical facts are correct, the opinions expressed are my own.
As soon as you said that there were worms in the mouth I was suspecting lungworms, but I wanted to await the necropsy results without seeing the worms myself.
Lungworms generally refers to Rhabdias spp. in snakes and Entomelas spp. in lizards. They have direct life cycles and eggs or larvae may be ingested in fecally contaminated food or water, or hatched larvae can gain access to the host by percutaneous (through unbroken skin) penetration.
Strongyloides (or Strongyles) are intestinal parasites that are very similar in appearance to the lungworm, but they exert their effects primarily through the gastrointestinal (GI) tract. Strongyloides also has a direct life cycle and eggs or larvae may also be ingested in fecally contaminated food or water, or hatched larvae can gain access to the host through intact skin. Diarrhoea and GI dysfunction are the most common symptoms, often in the presence of a mucus-laden stool. The infective larvae do migrate through the lungs, and, in rare cases, respiratory distress is noted.
The eggs of both parasites are very similar. Both can be diagnosed from fresh fecal samples. For those that have never prepared a sample to take to the vets for examination - I collect samples in clingwrap, and wrap them so that the fecal matter is not exposed to any air, hence preventing it from drying out. I then place that in a plastic bag which I also seal for hygienic reasons. Samples can be refrigerated overnight, but should never be frozen. The fresher the sample the better. My personal belief is that all reptiles should undergo fecal examinations initially and yearly as part of a regular check-up. Since I am fortunate to be able to perform my own fecal examinations and hence no cost is involved, I do fecals on all my reptiles twice a year.
Anyway, back to the lungworms - clinical signs are mild unless the infestation is heavy then the snake may present with signs of infection including lethargy, regurgitation, respiratory disease characterized by irregular breathing patterns, gaping, wheezing and production of excessive mucus, which contains the worms and their embryonated eggs. Unsanitary cage conditions are said to enhance a continuous infection. Diagnosis can also be made from looking at the mucus. Heavy loads can also lead to further problems.
Treatment of most worms can be performed with fenbendazole (Panacur) however, I have seen Oxfendazole recommended for these, and treatment is often disappointing. Ivermectin is another option.
It was suggested that round worms or tongue worms may be the problem in this case. Whilst it has already been shown that they are not present here, it would be also very unlikely to see them in oral mucus.
Neither lungworms or roundworms can be transmitted to humans and so zoonotic potential is not an issue. (Tongue worms are another matter entirely.)
With regards to treating with panacur - it is a very safe drug and treats most worms very effectively with no side effects to the reptile. If some of a collection needs treating then it is quite probable that the whole collection does, and so it may be best to just treat all animals. Remember that just because a fecal comes up clean doesn't guarantee that the animal has no worms, it could just be that no eggs were being shed at that time. Once treatment is commenced, the cage must be kept spotless under full quarantine conditions to prevent re-infection. I use three successive fecals as a sign of having eliminated the infection.
My advice to all parties involved here would be to get fecal examinations done on all your animals. Note that if you have lots of animals and can't afford to get that many fecals done - just mix up the poop from a few animals and pay for one examination. Even though you don't know which one produced the infected poop, if one needs treating that they probably all need treating anyway.
xelda
New member
I appreciate the condolences everyone has offered. You all have been so supportive about this. It's nice to meet people who understand how upset I am.
It's come to my attention that several people have been contacting ChaosCat to accuse her of selling me a worm-infested snake. Please, people. This matter is between her and me. While I'd like to know if any of her animals test positive for the worms, it's not so I can blame her for anything; it's because I'm concerned that something might be going around her collection or mine. I've been friends with Cat for over a year now and keep up to date on her collection and the awesome pictures she posts. I felt very comfortable buying my first corn from her and still trust her. We're maintaining contact with each other while we try to figure this out, so I have to reiterate that this is between her and me. I didn't even want to disclose who I bought the corn from until I could be certain where the worms came from.
So with that said, it was never my intention to go around blaming people for whatever. It's quite easy to research information on these worms myself but I was wanting to know if anyone here had any firsthand experience dealing with these worms. I've encountered quite a few herp parasites in the past and find it more helpful to hear from people who have advice based on personal experience. I'm very familiar with the use of Panacur and how to do fecal flotations but rather than feeling over-confident in my own abilities, I'm going to rely on the guidance of my vet because this is just too important not to. I have a collection of about 30 geckos and 6 snakes at stake.
Once again, thanks for all the support. I will be sure to keep you updated on the situation.
It's come to my attention that several people have been contacting ChaosCat to accuse her of selling me a worm-infested snake. Please, people. This matter is between her and me. While I'd like to know if any of her animals test positive for the worms, it's not so I can blame her for anything; it's because I'm concerned that something might be going around her collection or mine. I've been friends with Cat for over a year now and keep up to date on her collection and the awesome pictures she posts. I felt very comfortable buying my first corn from her and still trust her. We're maintaining contact with each other while we try to figure this out, so I have to reiterate that this is between her and me. I didn't even want to disclose who I bought the corn from until I could be certain where the worms came from.
So with that said, it was never my intention to go around blaming people for whatever. It's quite easy to research information on these worms myself but I was wanting to know if anyone here had any firsthand experience dealing with these worms. I've encountered quite a few herp parasites in the past and find it more helpful to hear from people who have advice based on personal experience. I'm very familiar with the use of Panacur and how to do fecal flotations but rather than feeling over-confident in my own abilities, I'm going to rely on the guidance of my vet because this is just too important not to. I have a collection of about 30 geckos and 6 snakes at stake.
Once again, thanks for all the support. I will be sure to keep you updated on the situation.
ChaosCat
New member
I only had one anonymous email from a bogus hotmail address, so I didn't even bother to respond. Pretty frustrating, if you ask me, I like to believe we're all "adults" here. 
I have one fecal sample that appears normal from the blizzard mother, and will get one from the remaining clutchmates. I'll be dropping them off as soon as I get the other sample.
I have one fecal sample that appears normal from the blizzard mother, and will get one from the remaining clutchmates. I'll be dropping them off as soon as I get the other sample.
Joker
Single again?
Xelda
I am sorry for the loss and wish you well in your research. Im normally pretty quiet on the forums as I am a newbie to all of this. But I have one comment for you if you all will humor me for a minute.
I surf quite a few reptile and snake forums and have seen the flaming at its worst. You get my congratulations on dealing with this like and adult! When the breeder is still involved and wanting to address this problem, again another acting like an adult, things get taken care of. You and ChaosCat definatly deserve props for handling this like you have. The abusive mails have no reason to be sent as long as both parties are working things out.
I am here to learn as I am sure MOST others are. I hope things work out for you and your collection. The only experience I have is with one corn breeder and he is an awesome person to deal with ( shameless plug for Ken) . THanks for listening.
Joker
I am sorry for the loss and wish you well in your research. Im normally pretty quiet on the forums as I am a newbie to all of this. But I have one comment for you if you all will humor me for a minute.
I surf quite a few reptile and snake forums and have seen the flaming at its worst. You get my congratulations on dealing with this like and adult! When the breeder is still involved and wanting to address this problem, again another acting like an adult, things get taken care of. You and ChaosCat definatly deserve props for handling this like you have. The abusive mails have no reason to be sent as long as both parties are working things out.
I am here to learn as I am sure MOST others are. I hope things work out for you and your collection. The only experience I have is with one corn breeder and he is an awesome person to deal with ( shameless plug for Ken) . THanks for listening.
Joker
Skye
New member
Hi Marg,
I have never used gse and so I can't speak for it's properties. If it promotes health then I presume the immune system would work more effectively from the animal being in better shape, but I can't see how a herbal remedy would treat, i.e. get rid of worms. Hence, if gse does improve the health and robustness of the animal, then it would help the animal resist infection, but it wouldn't remove infection that was already present. However, like I said - I have never used gse, and don't know what properties it has. Maybe someone else can help us out here?
---------------------------------------------------------------
Joker - well said - I agree that is is a pleasurable experience to see people handle things so maturely. It is also good to have the informatino posted here so others can learn from the experience.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fecal Examinations - a final note
A fecal examination needs to consist of both a float and a smear. Just doing one of these is insufficient as not all parasites will show up in both. For example, a protozoal flare-up will be very evident in the smear, but the float solution will kill them and so they may not be noticed once they aren't moving. However, ova (eggs) in small numbers that may not show up in a smear are more likely to be viewed in a float. Note that which eggs float also depends on the choice of solution used for the float.
I have never used gse and so I can't speak for it's properties. If it promotes health then I presume the immune system would work more effectively from the animal being in better shape, but I can't see how a herbal remedy would treat, i.e. get rid of worms. Hence, if gse does improve the health and robustness of the animal, then it would help the animal resist infection, but it wouldn't remove infection that was already present. However, like I said - I have never used gse, and don't know what properties it has. Maybe someone else can help us out here?
---------------------------------------------------------------
Joker - well said - I agree that is is a pleasurable experience to see people handle things so maturely. It is also good to have the informatino posted here so others can learn from the experience.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Fecal Examinations - a final note
A fecal examination needs to consist of both a float and a smear. Just doing one of these is insufficient as not all parasites will show up in both. For example, a protozoal flare-up will be very evident in the smear, but the float solution will kill them and so they may not be noticed once they aren't moving. However, ova (eggs) in small numbers that may not show up in a smear are more likely to be viewed in a float. Note that which eggs float also depends on the choice of solution used for the float.
xelda
New member
Marg - Grapefruit seed extract does have some anti-helminth (worm) properties, but to my knowledge, it's not as thorough as dewormers that your vet can prescribe. Plant/herbal remedies have been used for centuries in some countries to fight internal worms, but even the best ones are only about 60% effective.
Skye - Although an animal with a stronger immune system can withstand heavier parasitic loads, most parasites have evolved to trick immune systems into thinking they're not there. It's how they make their living. Just take hookworms for example. They secrete an enzyme that prevents the blood from clotting at the site where they dig their teeth in. If the blood clots, then they lose their grip and starve to death. This same enzyme is actually being used right now for research in treating humans who suffer strokes.
Joker - Thanks for your comments. I hope what you observe in other forums won't deter you from doing business with any of the other wonderful people in the trade.
Skye - Although an animal with a stronger immune system can withstand heavier parasitic loads, most parasites have evolved to trick immune systems into thinking they're not there. It's how they make their living. Just take hookworms for example. They secrete an enzyme that prevents the blood from clotting at the site where they dig their teeth in. If the blood clots, then they lose their grip and starve to death. This same enzyme is actually being used right now for research in treating humans who suffer strokes.
Joker - Thanks for your comments. I hope what you observe in other forums won't deter you from doing business with any of the other wonderful people in the trade.
hiya Skye, Xelda,
I only have one corn who doesn't (to my knowledge) have any health problems at present, I wondered if there was any way I could use GSE capsules which my husband accidently bought instead of GSE liquid
either now as a suppliment or in the future as a treatment for any problems i might encounter.
your answers are always welcome and helpful.
thank you
I only have one corn who doesn't (to my knowledge) have any health problems at present, I wondered if there was any way I could use GSE capsules which my husband accidently bought instead of GSE liquid
either now as a suppliment or in the future as a treatment for any problems i might encounter.
your answers are always welcome and helpful.
thank you
Joker
Single again?
I have already found my choice reptile breeders before I found this site, but dont get me wrong I would try someone else with the proper reputation as well. As CaosCat has seemed to have the adult attitude to deal with problems I might try her if there is something my choices do not have.
I also have seen that CaosCat is trying to do some more research on this incident. Which is highly credible to him/her. I still commend the way this is being handled in a civilized manner. I wish well to both parties and hope it does not take a turn for the worse. Of course this is just my rambling opinion again.
Joker
I also have seen that CaosCat is trying to do some more research on this incident. Which is highly credible to him/her. I still commend the way this is being handled in a civilized manner. I wish well to both parties and hope it does not take a turn for the worse. Of course this is just my rambling opinion again.
Joker
Skye
New member
Hi Neumann,
I have a very comprehensive library of numerous textbooks on herpetology, and also most of the clinical/medical books relating to reptile medicine and surgery.
I don't have time to list them all, but key medical ones would be:
Biological and Surgical Aspects of Captive Reptile Husbandry - Frye
Reptile Medicine and Surgery - Mader
BSAVA Manual of Reptiles - Girling and Raiti
Reptile and Amphibian Parasites - Rundquist
Common Reptile Diseases and Treatment - Messonnier
What's wrong with my snake - Rossi
Understanding Reptile Parasites - Klingenberg
the top three are excellent, very thorough, and not cheap,
the bottom two are smaller, cheaper and useful
Remember that the more you read with regards to reptile treatment, the more opinions you encounter and so gaining a basic knowledge is essential to make your own informed choices. There is still too little known about basic reptile medicine and too little research going on into it.
I have a very comprehensive library of numerous textbooks on herpetology, and also most of the clinical/medical books relating to reptile medicine and surgery.
I don't have time to list them all, but key medical ones would be:
Biological and Surgical Aspects of Captive Reptile Husbandry - Frye
Reptile Medicine and Surgery - Mader
BSAVA Manual of Reptiles - Girling and Raiti
Reptile and Amphibian Parasites - Rundquist
Common Reptile Diseases and Treatment - Messonnier
What's wrong with my snake - Rossi
Understanding Reptile Parasites - Klingenberg
the top three are excellent, very thorough, and not cheap,
the bottom two are smaller, cheaper and useful
Remember that the more you read with regards to reptile treatment, the more opinions you encounter and so gaining a basic knowledge is essential to make your own informed choices. There is still too little known about basic reptile medicine and too little research going on into it.