• Hello!

    Either you have not registered on this site yet, or you are registered but have not logged in. In either case, you will not be able to use the full functionality of this site until you have registered, and then logged in after your registration has been approved.

    Registration is FREE, so please register so you can participate instead of remaining a lurker....

    Please be certain that the location field is correctly filled out when you register. All registrations that appear to be bogus will be rejected. Which means that if your location field does NOT match the actual location of your registration IP address, then your registration will be rejected.

    Sorry about the strictness of this requirement, but it is necessary to block spammers and scammers at the door as much as possible.

My experience with Inclusion Body Disease (IBD)

Elle, thank you for doing the write up. I did find it very informative, and your situation sounds very much like what I went through almost 2 years ago. If you don't mind, I'd like to post my own experience. I know I've posted it before, but it can't hurt to get it all out there.

In late November 2007, I purchased an albino boa (Elizabeth) from Steel City Constrictors in Colorado. She was an oddity, having been born with only one eye, and was marked down severely from the other albinos. She just looked so sweet, I couldn't help but bring her home. I fed her the first week she was with me, and she ate with no issues. A week later, she went into blue. Her eyes cleared, but she didn't shed. No biggie. I've seen snakes wait up to a week to shed after the eyes cleared. A week came and went. Then 2 weeks. She didn't eat, and she didn't shed. She couldn't even defecate. I tried soaks and misting to help her with her shed. In late December (just after Christmas), I took her to a reptile vet, because she started exhibiting signs of an RI, and still hadn't shed (it was just over 3 weeks at this point). He told me to do what I had been doing (mist her, and bump up the heat a little). The next afternoon, I looked in her tank and found her dead. I was heartbroken, but put her in the fridge in an airtight Rubbermaid container. I didn't want to put her in the freezer due to crystallization and breaking of cells. I called the Colorado State University Veterinary School and scheduled her to be dropped off for a necropsy (January 8th was the earliest appointment they had). On January 25th, I received an e-mail stating the worst. It was a chronic case of IBD, something she had had for at least 6 months. I had her less than two. She was most likely infected by her mother, as she was still a very young snake.

The only reason I mention the name of the breeder at the beginning of the post is because they did NOT get any of their animals tested. In January, I took the full necropsy report (which I cannot find for the life of me) to them, and asked for a refund. I took a tour of their facility in July to pick out a replacement snake from a different pair of parents, as I was assured that the new snake would not have IBD, and what I saw was nothing short of horrendous. The temperature outside was approximately 95*F. Inside the building, there was no air conditioning, and heat pads were turned on. It literally felt like walking into a sauna, and was easily over 105*F inside the building. I can only imagine the temperature inside the snake tanks. They had a rack of 6qt sterilites. They said they were ball pythons, and I assumed they were hatchlings. I asked to see them. To my horror, they were not hatchlings, but ADULT ball pythons. Some were even gravid. I'm not even going to start on the condition their rats were in, but given the conditions of their snakes, I wasn't surprised.

I reported my findings (along with a copy of the necropsy report) to the owner of Boas and Balls (who also runs the Rocky Mountain Reptile Expo where I had purchased Elizabeth). She immediately banned them from any show until they could produce a report that they had ALL of their boas and pythons tested negative. She had an IBD issue several years before, and her entire collection of ball pythons was infected and had to be euthanized, so she understood the risks, and I commend her actions in banning them from the show.

If anyone is wondering, yes I did get a replacement snake from them. A Sunglow boa (Napoleon). I think it was supposed to be a bribe in order for me to keep my mouth shut, but I couldn't stand by and let them kill other peoples' collections. I do have 2 ball pythons and a burmese python that I have had since before I got the boa, and it was my understanding after talking to the owner of B&B that most pythons don't last a month once infected. Since Napoleon has come home, I have been through 2 separate mite infestations (which affected nearly my whole collection, and were proven to come from a bag of aspen bought at PetSmart), all of which were taken care of ASAP. All of my pythons are still alive, and one was severely affected by the mites at the same time as my boas. I think the true reason I'm not worried about another IBD breakout is because of the mites getting to almost all of my pythons (even when housed next to the boas before I noticed the infestation) and not contracting the disease. Elizabeth did not have any mites when brought into my home, and she was in quarantine from the day she was purchased until the day she died, including strict hand sterilization practices before and after handling.

This has been my experience. Thank you for allowing me the opportunity to share.
 
Fascinating Elle. Thank you for the link. I know this has been, and is still, very hard on you.
I really look up to you for having personally been a part of a momentum to make snake keeping better for other people all around.
 
vetusvates said:
Fascinating Elle. Thank you for the link. I know this has been, and is still, very hard on you.
I really look up to you for having personally been a part of a momentum to make snake keeping better for other people all around.
Click to expand...

Thanks Eric.

It's been hard recently because bad snakey luck seems to be raining down on me. First Clem, then turning Sirens face black, then my carinata lassies not being gravid but having unidentifyable masses in their tummies which could be either slugs or parasites. Surgery is the next step if worming them has no affect. Oh and they haven't eaten in 10 months either... go figure...
 
sad to hear you lost so much to IBD. I know from personal experience that alot of the people breeding snakes shouldn't be, but it always seems to be the good people who get the pain and the bad that make the profit.
Ive a 6ft amazon boa who I got from his 'previous owner' via the petshop he's manager off. Everything he told me was flat out wrong and I suspect I was fed a line. Yesterday draco knocked a tooth out, and today he's gone nuts. I found him with the dangling tooth, and thought it was skin. He was also curled like he'd constricted which was odd. He'll phantom constrict and is hyper aggressive. Hoping its just a bad day but suspect it is not...
I spose it makes two of us, since im still under investigation for brain tumour. I hope he pulls through cos hes probably the favourite of the snakes I have. 3 corns, the amazon & a hognose
 
I know it has been a while since I was active on this forum. But I thought I would update you guys on how it's been for me since this happened.

It is now almost 3 years on since Clementine passed. It's been another wonderful year with my babies, none of which are showing any signs or symptoms of IBD. Clems half brother Beaux is looking wonderful as well. 5 years old now, and a very handsome big guy .

beauxblack8.jpg


3 years on and I feel very hopeful about the situation. I am convinced the spread of IBD is not as prolific as we may think. I have 5 pythons, all of which are alive and well. 3 of which were here when Clem died, 2 of which were purchased last year. I have not had any recurring mites since 2009 either, I did blast the crap out of them with front line and anything that has come through the door since whether from a best friend or back door breeder is treated for mites on the spot and Qteen'd appropriately.

It leads me to question everything we know about IBD and the apparent methods of infection. One thing I have had to conclude that it is definitely NOT airborne as once thought. I still wash all tools and hands between contacting each snake. What I am questioning is the incubation period of the disease. I had discussed this with my vet last year when updating him (as I do yearly). He had suggested that 18 - 24 months was a reasonable time to harbour and manifest. Anything longer than that and it would seem unlikely an animal was infected. If a snake was an asymptomatic carrier, what would trigger the virus? In his opinion it would act as a secondary infection. Stress or illness would be the perfect opportunity for IBD to run it's course. And in 18 - 24 months it is reasonable to suggest that at some point a snake would be exposed to stressful conditions, enough to bring about a harbouring infection or over production of bacteria they already posses.

I am still very cautious of the boas I currently have, but I have relaxed myself a little around the pythons and colubrids. I do not believe they are at any risk of contracting the disease whether asymptomatically or directly as there will not be the opportunity for them to contract it through direct bodily fluid/fecal contact or through mites, as long as I continue my current standard of hygiene. I cannot say whether any of my snakes are or are not asymptomatic carriers (can anyone truly say this about 100% of their snakes?), but I can say that in 3 years not a single one has shown any signs or symptoms which means none of my current bunch of slithery darlings pose an immediate risk or danger to one another. Cleanliness is key! And being a paranoid nut job for the last 3 years has protected the further spread of IBD in my own snakes. However, I am not being blasé about the situation. But I am realistic about the situation. It is not all doom and gloom but I have a healthy appreciation for the prevention and control of infectious disease/viruses.

I am torn in a sense, that 3 years is a long time, long enough for IBD to rear it's head. And in one sense I have an air of hopefulness, just turning the corner and coming out of the woods. On the other hand I could let the paranoia and worry consume me and resort to the thought that ALL my snakes are infected and could die at any moment (as were my feelings initially through sheer panic). I think I'll just keep researching, talking to folks and compiling my own evidence through experience. But I do think that I am one lucky lady to still own all my beautiful babies. Instant euthanasia of all my snakes was never an option for me, and the last 3 years proves to myself it was the right choice. Who knows what the future may hold, I could be eating my own words next month, next year...
 
I'm kind of going through something similar with my snakes, only having to deal with Cryptosporidium.

I wouldn't discount IBD based on that period of time... I hate to say it, but that's just how things are. Viruses and parasites can remain inactive for years on end, statistically speaking... yeah, it was very likely that another animal harboring the disease should have passed away... but it's not conclusive... if you keep your animals under the right conditions(and you definitely are), their immune system will be strong enough to handle the threat... but that doesn't mean it's completely annihilated or even active.

Fact is, we know squat about snake ailments... Salmonella is known to be present in most snakes, and once in a great while, it actually can kill them. We have no idea how wide-spread IBD or Crypto are either... we have no data.

Fact that other snakes you have did not die does not necessarily mean they did not contract the virus… there’s no good way to test for it.
Personally, I wouldn’t count all of your animals infected, would I breed and sell on offspring though? Yish… that’s a really tough call to make.
On the Crypto front, I tested ALL of my animals… 3 crypto positive animals I held back and am trying to treat(yesterday I got the results for 3 stool samples, 2 of the animals actually showed higher levels of Crypto in their stools, but I can’t say if the treatment works or not since DE is technically supposed to attract occysts and dispose of them via the digestive tract). If I manage to get them to breed, I will test the babies and hopefully some will be Crypto-free… difference is, there’s a reasonable test(even if it’s not fool proof, it’s still relatively viable-especially if repeated).

So… I wouldn’t be overly concerned about your snake’s demise… I think we’re all delusional regarding how problem-free snakes in captivity are… human beings too can have all sorts of diseases and defects… all animals do, there’s nothing you can really do about it. We keep animals… some of them may die due to disease and so forth…

My 3 Crypto positive animals are the picture of health… heck, their appetite is even stronger and they are growing like weed… I practice strict hygiene measures to ensure minimal to non-existing risk of infection… but the results speak for themselves.

So… sadly, you are burdened with knowing you had IBD in your collection with no way to test for asymptomatic carrier status…
Any animal you brought in after the animal passed away, I would be less concerned about… but any animal you had prior to the transition into higher hygiene protocol… I would probably count as possibly infected.
I personally think that all of these diseases are just a part of being in this hobby- but it’s a theory, and I can’t act on it and act as though “business as usual” knowing that.

My crypto free stock are documented to be crypto free, and I treat them as such… though I still clean my hands with septol-scrub, use gloves when I clean poop and use gloves every time I even touch a tank of a crypto positive animal.

I guess you'll only know for sure when there'll be some sort of breakthrough in IBD study.
 
Kokopelli said:
I'm kind of going through something similar with my snakes, only having to deal with Cryptosporidium.

I wouldn't discount IBD based on that period of time... I hate to say it, but that's just how things are. Viruses and parasites can remain inactive for years on end, statistically speaking... yeah, it was very likely that another animal harboring the disease should have passed away... but it's not conclusive... if you keep your animals under the right conditions(and you definitely are), their immune system will be strong enough to handle the threat... but that doesn't mean it's completely annihilated or even active.

Fact is, we know squat about snake ailments... Salmonella is known to be present in most snakes, and once in a great while, it actually can kill them. We have no idea how wide-spread IBD or Crypto are either... we have no data.

Fact that other snakes you have did not die does not necessarily mean they did not contract the virus… there’s no good way to test for it.
Personally, I wouldn’t count all of your animals infected, would I breed and sell on offspring though? Yish… that’s a really tough call to make.
On the Crypto front, I tested ALL of my animals… 3 crypto positive animals I held back and am trying to treat(yesterday I got the results for 3 stool samples, 2 of the animals actually showed higher levels of Crypto in their stools, but I can’t say if the treatment works or not since DE is technically supposed to attract occysts and dispose of them via the digestive tract). If I manage to get them to breed, I will test the babies and hopefully some will be Crypto-free… difference is, there’s a reasonable test(even if it’s not fool proof, it’s still relatively viable-especially if repeated).

So… I wouldn’t be overly concerned about your snake’s demise… I think we’re all delusional regarding how problem-free snakes in captivity are… human beings too can have all sorts of diseases and defects… all animals do, there’s nothing you can really do about it. We keep animals… some of them may die due to disease and so forth…

My 3 Crypto positive animals are the picture of health… heck, their appetite is even stronger and they are growing like weed… I practice strict hygiene measures to ensure minimal to non-existing risk of infection… but the results speak for themselves.

So… sadly, you are burdened with knowing you had IBD in your collection with no way to test for asymptomatic carrier status…
Any animal you brought in after the animal passed away, I would be less concerned about… but any animal you had prior to the transition into higher hygiene protocol… I would probably count as possibly infected.
I personally think that all of these diseases are just a part of being in this hobby- but it’s a theory, and I can’t act on it and act as though “business as usual” knowing that.

My crypto free stock are documented to be crypto free, and I treat them as such… though I still clean my hands with septol-scrub, use gloves when I clean poop and use gloves every time I even touch a tank of a crypto positive animal.

I guess you'll only know for sure when there'll be some sort of breakthrough in IBD study.
Click to expand...

I'm very sorry to hear about your situation Oren. It's just such a helpless feeling when initially trying to deal with a disease or virus which is not known much about, and certainly not spoken about publicly by many folks.

As far as being complacent, that is not an option for me. It is certainly not business as usual around here. I have no intention of selling any of my boas. I am just glad the snakes I have bought over the last 7 years have been snakes I wanted for them, and not just ownership for the sake of breeding stock. These are my pets first and foremost. I do have Beaux (Clems half brother) booked in for liver and kidney biopsies in August. I will be systematically going through the boas in the most sensible order in my assumption from where the IBD could have came from. I figure 3 years was enough time for something to crop up on it's own if it was going to. And I feel like I am not wasting my time getting them biopsied now. If any of the boas are asymptomatic carriers, which biopsies will show, I will have them immediately euthanised. There is no other option. Any that come back clear will be housed in appropriate and strict Quarantine as IBD free specimens. I'd like to go through my entire bunch of adult snakes, bar the pythons. I do not believe the pythons need to be tested as if they were infected, they would have shown symptoms 3 weeks after infection never mind 3 years :p.

Ideally this process will be complete for 2014. It's expensive at £120 a snake, but I think it will be WELL worth the peace of mind. And one a month is not too much to pay for. I hope all goes well for Beaux in August. I'd be completely gutted if he was carrying IBD. He's been such a big healthy strapping lad for 5 years now :)
 
Kokopelli said:
How do they react to the procedure?
It seems stressful as heck.
Click to expand...

It is done under anaesthetic and a small incision is made to take the liver and kidney biopsies. There should be no more than 4 or 5 stitches to contend with. It's a relatively simple procedure. The most expensive part is the pathology of the biopsies, the operation is fairly "routine".
 
Wow... this really makes me think. Do you think I should get my snakes tested via defecate samples?
 
You can't test for IBD via stool sampling... you -can- test for Crypto but that's not fool-proof. It can also miss-diagnose the animal as Crypto-positive... Unless you have a real reason to suspect the presence of Crypto in your collection, I don't think there's a real need.

The more I go into it, the more I realize that animal medicine is a bit keen on drastic actions(EUTHANIZE EUTHANIZE EUTHANIZE) against anything it doesn't have a simple solution for... without really knowing enough to warrant such an act.
Animals can be asymptomatic for IBD and Crypto for years... anyone knows how long? nope... no one is checking. Is it a death warrant? says who? don't we humans have our own possible ailments which we can't completely eradicate but keep under control?
How common is Crypto in the wild? maybe vast number of reptiles harbor it just fine just like Salmonella?

I personally do not plan on submitting biopsy tests to all of my snakes... for one, the inherent risk in anesthetizing a snake is very high, from personal experience.

I think that a breeder should not be a lab worker- the test are imperfect per definition(there have been cases of misdiagnosis on biopsy, though far fewer than the stool sampling tests)... animals have a chance of getting sick... as much as humans do. Livers specifically are very sensitive organs for snakes(which is why one needs to be cautious when giving medication)... don't know, I think the risk and stress are not worth it... but it's a very personal decision.... so good luck with the tests.

Lyion- I don't think that Crypto stool sample testing is accurate enough to warrant testing every single animal in collections where Crypto has not reared it's ugly head.
 
Euthanasia was not an option for my snakes. I don't believe it would have been the right thing to do considering my animals are pets first and foremost, and I swore to keep them ALL until the day they died, whether it was due to natural causes or because they had started to show IBD symptoms and I chose to euthnaise them when that happened.

I think getting all the boas biopsied is the right thing to do, for me and my animals. I'd like to know either way. I think I have a duty to get them biopsied as well, now that it has been so long down the line I'd like to know if they do have inclusions or not. It would be devastating yet interesting if any came back positive after so long.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top