My first snake

[dartguy]

This is ridiculous

I am shocked at some of the responses here. Every piece of 'constructive critisism' seems to have been taken seriously by ULTIMATECORNS and addressed with seemingly sincere replies.

Occasionally we get a overzealous new member here and they put their foot in their mouth. Some of these newbies continue to post disagreeable comments and are due a tongue lashing. ULTIMATECORNS is, in my opinion, is not one of these newbies. They have taken all comments and responded in a apologetic manner.

SERP - I dont know you but your presence here at these forums has benefited me greatly. I know, by reading your posts, that you are intelligent in regards to cornsnakes and their genetics, HOWEVER, your comment

I hope his business venture fails.

was extremely dissapointing.

I am a little embarrased at the direction this post has taken.I hope that Ultimate would continue to frequent the forum as I am interested in seeing how they develop.

Rick

 

[Serpwidgets]

Dartguy:

I think it's great if people who love something can make a living doing just that. I did that myself for several years in the software industry, and will get back into it eventually. I understand it from first-hand experience. However, my true interest here has nothing to do with them, it has to do with the hobby.

It's my opinion that ultimatecorns will do more damage to the hobby than good.

It's not about "competition" because I honestly have no wish to ever make this hobby into a business for myself. I had that experience with PC games (worked in the industry as a designer) and it sucked when something I loved turned into a lot of work.

It's not about spite or malice, it's about putting the interests of a whole lot of hobbyists above that of a couple of people who wish to build a business in a way that I think will be detrimental to said hobby.

I see the sale of "pink snows" and "yellow snows" as at best irresponsible and at worst dishonest. Unless they've cornered the market on a secret new form of axanthism and hyperxanthism, those things are not reliable enough to make such a promise. I find it offensive, and an assault on my hobby.

I see the coining of "Tangerine" as offensive, too. I don't see a reason for it, or reasoning behind it. And Tangerine is already attached to a "gene" in another species. IMO it would be like if I thought I had a line of corns that was generally more brownish than others, and started selling them as "Anerythristic type C." There are expectations that come with certain names, and based on the claims made here, they should know better. As I see it, they are stepping on other people's toes and potentially creating confusion in order to further their own self-interests.

Compare the numbers (tens of thousands) that the big guns have hatched, in proportion to the numbers of new names they have coined for selectively-bred cultivars. The only thing I see in ultimatecorns' practice is that they're trying to make a name for themselves, consequences to others notwithstanding. I dunno if they've hatched their own F1s yet, but it seems obvious that they haven't hatched their own F2s yet. But then they're making all these implicit claims via their website which are IMO not backed up by anything.

I don't wish to see certain practices become commonplace in this hobby. Maybe you do, maybe you don't, or maybe you just didn't see it that way. I see it as an assault on my hobby, and I hope any such assault fails, regardless of who is behind it.

Like I said, it's my opinion. I may turn out to be wrong, and I hope I am. I just don't like what I have heard here, and seen on their website. If standing up for my hobby makes me a bad guy or disappoints someone, I honestly don't care.

 

[Kat]

Ahh... ultimate corns, I think you misunderstood Serp's algorithm question... First off, since he stated that X>1 and Y>1, that implies that X and Y are not numbers. Furthermore, X + Y is not implying something like Anery + Amel, it's implying something like 2+4... in otherwords, given two snakes, one with X number of traits and the other with Y number of traits, how would you go about producing a snake that has X+Y number of traits?

I know how to do it... I doubt I could write it out in a mathematical equation, but....

-Kat

 

[Serpwidgets]

Re: answer to quiz

serpwidgets,
how kind and small minded of you to wish failure upon us. Your comments to our honesty, and business practices are silly at best and libelous (slander in written form) at worst, so please be careful.

As I said, I find your practices to be an assault on my hobby. I hope that fails. Take that however you want.

And don't make childish and veiled threats, it's very unprofessional.

Answer: How can a homozygous animal have two recessive traits, should the question ask how to go from homo x to hetero x+y?
Assuming that is your real question:

I said homozygous for X traits, as in X is a number greater than 1.

The alleles for these traits are at different loci. There are thousands of loci in the cornsnake genome, so any given cornsnake is either heterozygous or homozygous at any of those thousands of different loci.

Snows are homozygous for two recessive traits. Motley butters are homozygous for 3 recessive traits. I didn't think I'd have to explain this.

 

[dartguy]

WELL SERP

you made a lot of good points and you had me until

If standing up for my hobby makes me a bad guy or disappoints someone, I honestly don't care.

I never said you were a "bad guy" and I'm sorry you feel that way. I wish you did care. I certainly do.

 

[CAV]

Serp,

There is a lot of truth in your post and I agree with many of your points. Selectively bred traits or new genetics are developed over many successive generations. If breeders choose to exploit the natural variablity that exists in all animals and call everything "new", this hobby will end up in a train wreck.

 

[Drizzt80]

In defense of Serp . . .

Not that he really needs defending, but as a recent newcomer to breeding cornsnakes, I will have to say that doing my research was difficult when coming across sites that had different names for basically the same type of snake.

Genetically speaking, even an okeetee corn or miami corn is really just a normal isn't it? Candy canes are really just amels, etc. That can get confusing to someone who doesn't take the time to weed out all the information.

A breeder with a website giving 'misinformation' causes further confusion to an already confusing hobby. I trust (because of their longevity and WORK put into the hobby) that when Rich or Kathy or Don give a new name to an animal, they have breeding trials to back up the color or pattern variety as genetic, etc. A Tangerine creamsicle whatever . . . where's the history of this morph. If I recall there's a site somewhere out there with tiger corns listed . . . what's that genetically? etc. etc. etc.

From this standpoint, I can see exactly what SerpWidgets is trying to defend here, and I applaud him for that.

D80

 

[Serpwidgets]

Oh, that?

I never said you were a "bad guy" and I'm sorry you feel that way. I wish you did care. I certainly do.

Nahh, I didn't take it personally. Read enough of my posts on controversial subjects and you'll see that it's just my standard disclaimer.

 

[CornsnakeKeeper]

This thread has gone a little off-track from its point, but...

I can tell you guys to visit the kingsnake.com classifieds can check out the bearded dragon section, every normal looking BD had a different name... HypoTangerineWatermelon...lol, and everything else they want to call anything with a crooked stripe in its pattern. The BD group sells Leucistics that from what I understand, no one knows for sure whether or not they are truly what they are said to be. I think Rich, Don, Kathy and others have paved the way for corn snake keeping staying "organized." (for lack of a better word) Read cornsnakes.com and check out the lavender/mocha discussion. Two people trying to market the same corns under different names.

Just pointing out some things for you all to compare to...

 

[Rich Z]

There are always going to be at least two major camps in the cultivar identification and classification controversy. On one side there will be the people whom want to be the first to produce and identify something new. On the other, will be those that would LIKE to be the first to hatch out something new, but will settle for just being the first to market something new. One is just naturally an easier road to travel than the other. Most people are just not going to have the patience for the long road they really should take.

Here's the problem. Suppose you are the first one (at least as far as you know) to hatch out what you think is a new gene. How long will it take you to prove it is actually new? If it is radically different, this may take no more than growing it up and breeding it with related siblings, and/or one of the parents. The ratio of animals hatching out will give you a fair indication of whether it is a genetic trait of not, hoping, of course, that it is a single recessive and not a combination. Murphy's Law intruding with such setbacks as low fertility or your luck just being plain bad can delay you somewhat.

If it is more subtle, like suppose you hatched out an unusual looking Anerythristic corn, how many other genetic cultivars are you going to have to have test breedings with that animal to prove that it is NOT one of the existing genetic traits? Right now, to be safe, you would have to breed this "new" genetic trait into 'A' Anerythrism, Charcoal, Caramel, and Lavender to see what results you may get. If your new gem is a male, good for you, but if it is a female, you have some time involvement to take into consideration that could be VERY excessive. All the while you are trying to prove WHAT this animal is, you could be using it instead towards even more interesting combos. If it is a new gene, of course.

And all the while you are doing this, MAYBE someone else has hatched out one identical to yours. While this is really irrelevant from a scientific or interest standpoint, it is deadly serious to those people playing the market angle on new cultivars. So much so that some people will jeopardize their future reputations on the marketing advantage they get today by being the first one offering the newest of the new. Tim Rainwater is an excellent example of the later circumstance.

And this will happen every year. Count on it.

Then we have hybrids thrown into the mix......

 

[ultimatecorns]

cultivar debate

Here is the rationale for the descriptions listed on our website for various cultivars.
We understand that pink and yellow snows are not different types but different colors of the same type. It just is we think some people prefer one over the other.
If you take two of my yellowish snows and breed them you will get some that are yelowish andsome that are pinkish. Same thing with my Miami's (redish, orangeish-golden).
I noticed on Kathy Love's website that she lists her creamsicles, by "orange to red for one price and golden to yellow for another price.
Unfortunately there is no AKC to register morphs or establish purebrededness in this industry.
I will gladly change the organization of our website to state
Miami Phases
Redish
Golden
etc. if you guys think that is more appropriate.
This slight change would show "Snows" as the main heading for a cultivar, and then color preferences could be listed as subheadings.
We are delighted at the input, as long as it is not destructive,and are very glad to make adjustments and tweak it so as to conform with the industry standards. So thankyou all for pointing out areas for improvement.
I do have a question that I would appreciate everyones opinion on:
Let me restate that I have no interest in "ruining the cornsnake industry". Everyone I have met have been wonderfully kind and genuinely helpful. We do have high hopes and big plans, but we want to work with others never against. So if there is ever anything we can do to help you, the answer is yes. Our vision of the cornsnake market is not a limited pie, where we fight with each other for bigger slices. Rather we see it as an ever growing market with a very bright future.
"Everybody Needs Another Cornsnake"
Now is the time to set standards and formulate gentlemans agreements, if not outright liscencing (something we can chose to do ourselves as an industry, why not Doctors, and beauticians have done so already). Because one man's bubblegum is another man's neon. Perhaps we need a forum at Daytona before or after exhibit hours to develop an association, membership, bylaws, and agreements. I am pretty good at this sort of thing and would be delighted to help. We ought to have officers too. A Breeders Code of ethics is also needed.
Nate's Dad
Tim Benson

 

[Gregg]

Great Idea, Ultimatecorns

I'll bring the refreshments and the C4 explosives. That we, when all y'all's friendly debate turns into the Battle of The Demi-Gods, I can light the fuse and quietly leave the room.


Everyone should have a dream, but sometimes, those who jump bravely off into the deep end find that they cannot swim and they drown. Dreams should be accomplished one step at a time, gaining knowledge with each step, until one is at the point at which they have chosen to be. Once there, the work is not over. One must continually perform at the highest standards in order to remain a Super Star--to borrow a Rock Star analogy.

Anyway, I applaud your dreaming. Unfortunately, I think there is a lot of work ahead of you and the statements you and your son have made in this thread have caused even more work for you both. Speaking only for myself, I hope y'all make it. On the other hand, I have a problem with a bragger and I doubt I would purchase any snakes from you because of it.

No wait, I don't have a problem with a bragger, if it's a fact, but the facts should come first, then the bragging. I guess, ever since the OJ trial, I've been put off by those who can buy their way out of, or into, whatever they want.

Good Luck.

 

[ultimatecorns]

We have updated the website, thanks for all the kind suggestions.

"Everybody Needs Another Cornsnake!!!"