News re: euthanasia of snakes

[Dave123]

The current thinking is that you put them in the refrigerator first, to force them into a comatose state. So the snake is believed to be completely unaware of the freezing process that follows.

Ohh ok then that might be more practical.

The vet scenario just isn't practical, even for small breeders. Way too expensive.

I was thinking that. I still might check into that if I have any that weren't meant to live. But lets hope not.

 

[dionythicus]

OK...I'm going to play Devil's advocate here...

How does the person who wrote that article know HOW a snake feels while it is freezing to death (I mean...it's not like the snake can tell him, right?)? I'm not saying he's wrong...I just need some proof. He mentions studies in the quote you posted. Do you have more info on those studies?

I'm guessing because Dr. Maas is one of the top herp vets in the country and his focus is entirely on herps and exotics that he has done the necessary research to prove this "theory" valid. He does list the American Veterinary Medical Association, American Assoc. of Zoological Veterinarians and the Assoc. of Reptile and Amphibian Veterinarians as supporting this claim of reptiles remaining cognizant while their bodies freeze. He states that any vet who would recommend this practice would be categorized as malpractice. That seems to sum it up for me, but I will determine his sources.

 

[Duff]

The current thinking is that you put them in the refrigerator first, to force them into a comatose state. So the snake is believed to be completely unaware of the freezing process that follows.

That's because it's easier on the breeder. No mess and you're not really doing the dirty work, so to speak. I fail to see how anyone could believe that it's humane, though. I know mammals and reptiles are different, but I'm willing to bet death by cold is just as unpleasant for any type of animal. True, if comatose (and they don't wake up, which they may), the freezing part may be painless, but do you really think the getting to comatose part is? That seems like a lot of avoidable suffering to me.

 

[MegF.]

I don't buy a lot of this. If cooling in the fridge is painful than technically, brumating at a low temp would be uncomfortable also as you are putting them into a somnulant state when they brumate. If 50 degrees puts them into a semi-comatose state of brumation, how could they really be fully awake at 30 or 20. I cool in the fridge first, then freeze. I never place directly into the freezer. Also, I have trouble with the beheading item. If the nervous system has no nerves to respond to, how exactly does it feel pain, or be alive? A head requires blood flow in order to work. If there is no heart or circulatory system, the brain will die. Certain muscles will continue to respond, just as the frog in your biology class did, but it isn't alive. You can remove the brain and the muscles will continue to respond to stimulus but that doesn't mean that there is feeling. Physiologically it makes no sense!

 

[lefty_mussolini]

...the freezing part may be painless, but do you really think the getting to comatose part is?

Well, considering that the temps inside a fridge are just about the same as the temps that snakes brumate in the wild sometimes, I doubt there is much pain at all.

And I've gotta be honest, these recent findings probably aren't going to change my methods any. I love snakes, but if I can break the necks of mice and rats all day at work with my bare hands, or gut a fish while it's still alive after fishing, I am really not going to feel bad for freezing a snake that is going to die anyway. If the snakes that I see fit for euthanasia were in the wild, they would probably feel quite a bit more pain when they met their natural deaths.

 

[CaptainJack]

I don't know. I thought it sounded really weird when I first read about freezing snakes to death, but I have no way of knowing if it's humane or not. Maybe the difference between brumating and the fridge is the speed? Maybe going from a warm room right into a cold fridge is painful instead of the temperature steadily dropping like it does in nature?
If a researcher is interested in pain in animals and has a lab they could probably hook electrodes or wires or something into the snakes' brains and nervous systems to monitor their responses to certain events. Scientists can do all sorts of weird things to animals in labs. Ha. So really I don't think it would be that hard for someone who knows what they're doing to figure out if something is painful to an animal...But really I'm not sure what would be more humane. It's a hard subject. :shrugs:

 

[MegF.]

You are still assuming that responses are the same as a humans. We know there have been accounts of rats and mice eating their intended hunter instead of the other way around and the snake basically lays there and lets them. I don't think that an animal with the same nervous system as we have, would allow that to happen. I think that I will probably continue to use cooling, then freezing as a humane way to kill a reptile. CO2 is not effective. They exchange oxygen at a much lower rate than we do and it could take a long, long time for it to do it's job. Smashing their heads in or cutting off the head will work too, but it's a lot messier and I would worry that I didn't do it cleanly or quickly enough.

 

[TWGarland]

Having never had to euthanise before i have no idea how emotionally hard it would be to do, but i'd be damn sure if i had to do it that i was killing the snake in the most humane way possible, even if it means abit of mess after, or more stress for me (im not the one about to die am i?!)

So some of you guys are saying (no names) that even though a professional, who unlike yourselves has done the research says that the fidge/freezer option is not humane and you guys as snake lovers/breeders are not prepared to look into it? I think that is wholly irresponsible.

 

[TWGarland]

Sorry if my last post offended not my intention.

After reading this whole thread it seems clear to me that no one (myself included) have any idea which option is the most humane/if the snakes do go into a coma/or if it is more or less painfull.

My point is simply that as we dont know, then shouldnt you take the viewpoint of a professional, who although i've never heard of him, is obvioulsy held in high regard by his peers and is backed up in his statement by many large organisations?

Do you think these organisations would just go yeah f***k it we'll just say that it does hurt them? no. they would be sure before they backed up a controversial opinion.

A vet considers it malpractise to fridge/freeze, but if it was financially viable all you breeders would do is take it to the vet to be euthanized? doesnt make sense to me

 

[CornCrazy]

Sorry if my last post offended not my intention.

After reading this whole thread it seems clear to me that no one (myself included) have any idea which option is the most humane/if the snakes do go into a coma/or if it is more or less painfull.

My point is simply that as we dont know, then shouldnt you take the viewpoint of a professional, who although i've never heard of him, is obvioulsy held in high regard by his peers and is backed up in his statement by many large organisations?

Do you think these organisations would just go yeah f***k it we'll just say that it does hurt them? no. they would be sure before they backed up a controversial opinion.

A vet considers it malpractise to fridge/freeze, but if it was financially viable all you breeders would do is take it to the vet to be euthanized? doesnt make sense to me

Thank you for the apology...because your last post was offensive. I, for one, never said I was unwilling to look into it. All I was saying is that NO ONE really knows what a snake feels. You can hook one up to as many electrodes as you want and interpret the results however you want, but you still don't know if the snake is feeling pain. How can one determine between pleasure, pain, etc., if the animal can't tell us how it feels?

As for people taking them to the vet to euthanize...the reason one would do that is because most veterinarians euthanize with a lethal injection.

I'm guessing because Dr. Maas is one of the top herp vets in the country and his focus is entirely on herps and exotics that he has done the necessary research to prove this "theory" valid. He does list the American Veterinary Medical Association, American Assoc. of Zoological Veterinarians and the Assoc. of Reptile and Amphibian Veterinarians as supporting this claim of reptiles remaining cognizant while their bodies freeze. He states that any vet who would recommend this practice would be categorized as malpractice. That seems to sum it up for me, but I will determine his sources.

Thanks. I would appreciate it. I will be doing some research on my own, as well.

The odd thing is that I've worked in the veterinary field for 8 years and I've never heard of Dr. Maas. One would think I would have heard of him...especially since we see exotics.

 

[Dave123]

As for people taking them to the vet to euthanize...the reason one would do that is because most veterinarians euthanize with a lethal injection.

This was my thought originally. Do you think this is a good way to do it and would it cost a lot?

 

[Lennycorn]

This was my thought originally. Do you think this is a good way to do it and would it cost a lot?

Yes, It would be a humane way but very costly.

 

[cornsnakekid92]

well if you get injected just with air t

well if you get injected just with air that kills you right? Is it very painfull to go that way? Because you could just get a suringe and inject air into the snake as leathal injection?

 

[TWGarland]

Once again CornCrazy, sorry if my posted offended you it wasn't intended that way and i wasnt thinking of anyone inparticular when writing my post. I also added my second post cos i realised after posting that it wasn't worded as well as i would have liked, considering the sensitivity of the issue being debated.

Originally Posted by TWGarland

After reading this whole thread it seems clear to me that no one (myself included) have any idea which option is the most humane/if the snakes do go into a coma/or if it is more or less painfull.

Originally Posted by Corncrazy

All I was saying is that NO ONE really knows what a snake feels.

I think we're pretty much agree there.

I still stand by what i said below though

Originally Posted by TWGarland

My point is simply that as we dont know, then shouldnt you take the viewpoint of a professional, who although i've never heard of him, is obvioulsy held in high regard by his peers and is backed up in his statement by many large organisations?

I know that many of the people on this site having read this will look furthur into it, if facing euthanising in the future, as you crazycorn said yourself. There will also be people who dont though, and it was to those that i was writing.

 

[Roy Munson]

The current thinking is that you put them in the refrigerator first, to force them into a comatose state. So the snake is believed to be completely unaware of the freezing process that follows.

That's because it's easier on the breeder. No mess and you're not really doing the dirty work, so to speak. I fail to see how anyone could believe that it's humane, though. I know mammals and reptiles are different, but I'm willing to bet death by cold is just as unpleasant for any type of animal. True, if comatose (and they don't wake up, which they may), the freezing part may be painless, but do you really think the getting to comatose part is? That seems like a lot of avoidable suffering to me.

I will admit that the fridge/freezer method is easy and hands-off, and that that's why I favor it. BUT, I don't think breeders were shrugging off the possible cruelty of the method due to its ease of practice. I know I wasn't. All of the literature I read, and all of the knowledgable members here seemed to indicate that the refrigerator part of the method slowly dropped the snake into a state of non-awareness. I truly believed that. As others have stated, brumation temps can dip to fridge-temps, and I've heard of one big breeder who claimed that his most productive year followed a bru period where equipment failure caused the temps to drop to what he thought was a dangerous level (near or at freezing, if I recall correctly).

So the real question is: are they still aware and capable of feeling pain after hours in the refrigerator? If authorities on this topic are answering "yes", then I'd like to see more evidence for that position. This isn't a challenge to dionythicus; I'm very grateful that she posted this.

Trevor (Lefty_Mussolini) made some good points. I fish-- mostly catch and release. But hooking an animal by the face (or eye, or gut) can't be pleasant for them. I eat meat, fowl, and fish. I don't fool myself into believing that the cattle, chickens, cod etc. are raised/caught and slaughtered in ways that are completely humane. Are pet animals inherently owed more humane treatment than food animals? Is a hatchling corn as aware as a young calf? And what about humans? I wear clothing that may have been made in wretched sweatshops in the third world. I submit tax dollars that fund the killing (and sometimes torture) of men, women, and children half a world away.

I guess my point is that I'm ALREADY a callous monster, and I'm not alone. If we weren't callous monsters, then we'd be doing everything we could to avoid participating in those things that we suspect involve inhumane processes. I won't be judging anyone harshly who decides to continue with the fridge/freezer method, even if the evidence comes back in favor of the O.P.'s premise. I still believe that we all have a responsibility to do things as humanely as possible when we have control of the situation, but we need to keep it all in perspective.

 

[Susan]

well if you get injected just with air that kills you right? Is it very painfull to go that way? Because you could just get a suringe and inject air into the snake as leathal injection?

Injecting air into the bloodstream can be fatal...if enough air is injected. However, it is probably extremely painful. Ask anyone who has gotten the "bends" while diving.

I've worked as a veterinary technician for over 23 years, including 6 years working at a wildlife rehab. Euthanizing an animal by lethal injection sometimes isn't as easy as it sounds. Lethal injections are most often given intravenously or in the heart. Fine. Now...euthanize this bird. If it's large enough, yes, you can use a wing vein. But how about that sparrow? I don't think they even make a needle small enough to fit into the largest vein of a bird that size. Try for the heart...wait, can't get through the breast bone. The method I had to end up using, and it actually works very well, is to inject directly into the brain via the dorsal base of the skull. Injecting herps can also be a very difficult task. Ever try to inject into a vein of a large tortoise that is still able retract all body parts into it's shell? You have to try and put it out of it's misery as it was run over by a car and all it's internal organs are mush. Well, you have open flesh there so you inject that way. Not the quick way for lethal injection to work, but it eventually does. Now how are you going to lethally inject that newborn corn hatchling that is horribly kinked, folded in half and fused together and is missing an eye and half it's jaw? My vet doesn't open until Monday (and it's Sat evening) and the emergency clinic will charge me $75 just to walk in the door. I would pay the $75 just to see if anyone could possibly even FIND a vein, or even the heart, on this poor creature, let along get the smallest gauge needle in it. So what am I going to do...leave it alone, like what would happen in nature, to eventually die on it's own? No...I put it in the fridge and then the freezer to end it's suffering in the most humane way I have available.

People argue over which methods of killing are "humane" and which are not. I don't think that is really an issue. The reason we euthanize ANY living creature is to end it's suffering, so ANY method that fulfills that need is better than simply doing nothing and letting the creature suffer and eventually die on it's own. Humans kill animals on a daily basis for various reasons and by numerous methods. If you look at some of them carefully, can you honestly say they are any more humane?

 

[Lennycorn]

Humane >adjective 1 having or showing compassion or benevolence.

Or in this case, an act we can live with.
This is a tough topic.
I to agree that there is no true humane way to euthanise any living creature.

 

[Duff]

One quick point I have to make. The argument is being made that the study mentioned can't KNOW that freezing is causing pain because the snake can't tell us. If you're using that thinking to discount the study, than the same argument must be made for the other side. You can't say that fridge/freezer doesn't cause pain and suffering, because the snake can't tell us. Personally, I will always err of the side of the animal being put down, and not what's easiest for me.

Here's a link to another opinion about euthanasizing small animals. The conclusion states:
[font=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]In a perfect world euthanasia would never be necessary. Since it sometimes is, the goal of this column is to promote the use of humane methods and to educate readers that some commonly used methods, such as freezing and decapitation, are inappropriate.[/font]

http://www.anapsid.org/euth.html

And for those interested, here is Dr. Maas' link. After reading his bio (Staff & Services), I am quite comfortable considering him a knowledgeable authority.

http://www.avianexoticanimalhospital.com/index-5.html

 

[MegF.]

That is true, but there are numerous examples that show that snakes are not as sensitive to pain as a mammal would be. My first example of mice or rats eating a snake alive or snakes laying on a hot object until severly burned is another. I for one would always want the most humane way of euthanizing an animal. A reptile has a primative nervous system compared to mammals. The young of most animals respond to things like anathesia very differently from adults. When gassing pinkies it can take an hour sometimes for the babies to be completely dead where an adult is unconscious in 30 seconds and dead in 3 minutes. If cooling in the fridge were cruel, than so is brumating, and snakes in the wild (at least in cold areas) hibernate each winter remaining in a somnulent state. I will definitely be checking out the research and the doctor as well. I certainly don't know everyone in the reptile world but you'd think there would have been numerous articles in reptile related books and magazines. For what it's worth, my biomedical book suggests that euthanizing by injection can be difficult as reptiles do not respond the same way and often take more or less than an average mammal to kill it. Even anesthesia is risky with snakes due to their way of matabolizing the gas. I'd like to see more to prove this and to explain how brumation is not painful if cooling in a fridge is.

 

[MegF.]

I went online to look up the vet and all I could find was herp care sheets and listings for his address as a vet, his bio and other general information. No papers or research stuff. The animal clinic looks very cool though! I might add that the link you provided about euthanasia was not written by Maas, but by Steven Barton. I know our vet also sedates before delivery of the final shot to euthanize and that was never mentioned in that article at all. He found that many animals showed extreme distress if they just gave the phenobarb straight.