News re: euthanasia of snakes

[Duff]

Cooling is not what is being called inhumane, freezing is. The cooling part comes in due to the un-proven assumtion that it will induce a comatose state (kind of makes me shake my head that everyone wants proof for something they disagree with, but do not require any proof for something they already do :shrugs: ). The fact that snakes brumation temps can be in the same range as fridge temps only helps to prove the argument that the snake is indeed aware of the freezing process. When brumating snakes, they continue to need a water supply, so they are NOT comatose. They may be in a deep sleep, but even a deep sleep does not mean they will not wake up once the painfull ice crystals begin to form in and on their bodies. Why take the chance that you're causing an animal to suffer any more than is necessary?

As for the original report and research, I sent an email off to the contact address listed, so I'll let everyone know if I get a response.

 

[Duff]

I might add that the link you provided about euthanasia was not written by Maas

I never said it was. I stated is was ANOTHER opinion, but I will try to be more clear next time.

 

[MegF.]

Ah, I missed that part!
As for not needing proof of things we believe in, I was going by things that I had been told and read over the years that says that they do go comatose. My temps occasionally rise above 50 and then the snakes move a bit, but I've actually known people who have just placed a snake in a container and they've safely brumated as is. I still provide water, but I'm not sure if they are actually drinking it or not. I know turtles go into hibernation underground and rarely move from there unless temps rise, so they seem to be able to go comfortably without water for months at a time. This tells me that they aren't awake. Now whether they feel the ice crystals forming and awaken, I don't know. I'm just saying that I'd like to see the research that shows that their nervous systems react to that stimulus. I've seen research that says they don't feel the same things or that they have as many pain receptors to feel.

 

[Roy Munson]

(kind of makes me shake my head that everyone wants proof for something they disagree with, but do not require any proof for something they already do :shrugs: ).

I was hoping to see the evidence so that I would know if what I am already doing is humane, or not. I'd just like to see more information about this, period. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Despite the fact that I'm sure it exists out there, I've never seen the hard data that supports the idea that brumation increases fertility. I guess I believe it based on the accounts of many experienced herpers. The fridge/freezer euthanasia method is much the same in that regard.

The fact that snakes brumation temps can be in the same range as fridge temps only helps to prove the argument that the snake is indeed aware of the freezing process. When brumating snakes, they continue to need a water supply, so they are NOT comatose.

That does not prove that they're aware of the freezing process. A snake at the low end of brumation temp ranges will not be able to seek water, even if thirsty. They will be unable to move at all. They may not even be aware that they are thirsty. We don't know. Most breeders don't breed at the extreme low end of tolerable brumation temps.

They may be in a deep sleep, but even a deep sleep does not mean they will not wake up once the painfull ice crystals begin to form in and on their bodies. Why take the chance that you're causing an animal to suffer any more than is necessary?

You're right, they may be in pain. We don't know. I'm skeptical that degrees of pain and/or pain awareness in any organism will be measurable by instrument or observation anytime soon. Still, I'll probably try to figure out a way to perform cranial crushing in a way that I can deal with.

The thing I have to shake MY head at is the fact that people can be worried about a few minutes of suffering for a doomed snake, but still consume animal products when many of these animals spend their entire lives in abject misery. I'm no PETA guy, and I consume animal products, but it's often in the back of my mind.

And one more point. I'll bet that for all of the fridge/freezered, doomed hatchlings, there are at least an equal number that are sold to people and then allowed to escape. The majority of these will die of slow starvation, dehydration, or predation (maybe even a combination). If I was to crusade for the humane treatment of hatchling corns, I'd expend my efforts on this aspect of husbandry. But now we're going to see people called out and harassed for fridge/freezer euthanasia, while all of the "My snake escaped!" people will continue to get sympathy, kind words and advice when they failed to meet one of their snake's primary, captive needs (actually, the one upon which all others depend).

 

[TWGarland]

For more information please read:-

http://www.avma.org/issues/animal_welfare/euthanasia.pdf

 

[dionythicus]

Thanks for the link.

I do believe that someone, like Dr. Maas, who loves and specializes in the care of herps would not lightly make a statement against one form of euthanasia in an attempt to create controversy unless it was supported by research. This AVMA link is very interesting, from what I've read so far.

I like to think we do the best for our animals and have the kindest intentions when we do what we do for them. I agree with Dean, I support the killing (often inhumane) of farm animals and other creatures to keep myself fed and comfortable by buying packaged meat, leather shoes, etc.. We are removed from that actual action taking place. When it's at home and we become part of it, it takes on a new meaning. It's difficult to be the instrument of death, but by being the ones who created the life by breeding the parents together, we need to seek a compromise. There is significant reason to believe that freezing is not humane, but it will continue to be the "accepted". I'm not going to jump on anyone for choosing that method, because I have used it myself in the past. I need to get beyond the feelings that I personally have for being the instrument of death and choose the best method for me. I would advise against freezing as a means of euthanasia and offer the reasons why, but I'm not anyone's judge or jury in making their decisions for them. I don't agree with cohabbing, but I don't jump on anyone for doing it. We each have to live with our actions.

 

[CornCrazy]

One quick point I have to make. The argument is being made that the study mentioned can't KNOW that freezing is causing pain because the snake can't tell us. If you're using that thinking to discount the study, than the same argument must be made for the other side. You can't say that fridge/freezer doesn't cause pain and suffering, because the snake can't tell us. Personally, I will always err of the side of the animal being put down, and not what's easiest for me.

Here's a link to another opinion about euthanasizing small animals. The conclusion states:
[font=Arial, Verdana, sans-serif]In a perfect world euthanasia would never be necessary. Since it sometimes is, the goal of this column is to promote the use of humane methods and to educate readers that some commonly used methods, such as freezing and decapitation, are inappropriate.[/font]

http://www.anapsid.org/euth.html

And for those interested, here is Dr. Maas' link. After reading his bio (Staff & Services), I am quite comfortable considering him a knowledgeable authority.

http://www.avianexoticanimalhospital.com/index-5.html

Since this is directed toward me...I will respond to it. I stated that I was playing devil's advocate for a reason...that reason being that people need to see BOTH sides of something in order to make a knowledgable decision about it. Yes, I want proof that cooling, then freezing a reptile is inhumane. I think that is a normal thing to ask. I feel for anyone who just reads something or is told something and believes it no questions asked. If I tell you the moon is purple, are you gonna just take my word for it? NO...you are going to look at the moon to see for yourself. If an accepted practice is challenged, then people have every right to want proof that the new way is better.

I'm gonna pick out this little part for further discussion:

If you're using that thinking to discount the study, than the same argument must be made for the other side. You can't say that fridge/freezer doesn't cause pain and suffering, because the snake can't tell us.

Where did I ever say I was discounting the study? I simply said I want to see the evidence myself.

I personally have seen some snakes that were almost dead due to too cold temps. A couple of days ago, the heat went out in my building. I had some snakes that I thought were not going to make it. They were SO cold that they couldn't even move. There is NO way they would have been searching out water in that condition. One in particular was in bad shape. I thought he was dead at first. He started out very limp. As I warmed him in my hands, he went very stiff. I could tell at this point that he was still alive (although barely). I put him in a container on a high shelf in my building (where it was warmer). By the next day, he was back to normal. I am sorry, but I have a hard time believing that he could have felt anything while he was that cold. Therefore...I would like to see the research/evidence myself that they can feel pain when they are cooled/frozen.

 

[dionythicus]

I suppose I would have to liken it to being awake but paralyzed during surgery. They use two types of anesthesia, one to paralyze and one to put you to sleep. Sometimes, only the paralytic agent is effective and people are awake throughout the procedure but are unable to respond or react. This is the point behind the idea of reptiles becoming unresponsive due to the temp drop, but their minds are still functioning. Just because they can't move doesn't mean they aren't aware of sensation. I would like to see these studies myself, too. There's nothing wrong with wanting to have proof, especially when some potentially new information challenges what's been in practice for so long. I think it's good to see both sides. In this case, however, because I know Dr. Maas through our local herp society and I have been to him with my snakes, I am inclined to accept his word as the truth. Anyone with questions should please contact him via email or phone. He would gladly talk to anyone with concerns. He's just that kind of person and vet.

 

[MegF.]

I've seen accounts by people who have nearly frozen to death and although the cold was uncomfortable the freezing was not. They basically became exhausted and went to sleep/unconscious. They didn't feel anything at all. Later when they were warmed and the frostbitten areas were starting to receive circulation, they felt pain. Although I'm sure Dr. Maas is a fine vet, there is still the question of how they came about their answers. I would find it fascinating to see what sort of ways they determined that the snake felt whatever it felt.

 

[Duff]

First off, I was not directing anything at anyone one in particular, I was directing it at the argument being made by more than one person. When I wish to direct something at a particular person, I will say so up front and not try to hint around at it. There were no personal attacks in any of my responses, so please don't assume there was.

Now that that's out of the way, I got a response from Dr. Maas. He does not have the quoted paper handy, but he did state the following:

"Cooling does produce torpor, as I stated, but they are not unaware.
EEGs will show that there is still normal brain waves. That's not a coma,
just immobilized. Take a look at the function of a drug called
succinylcholine and the immobilization it produces- normal pain reception, normal brain function, all other sensory function normal, but unable to move and limp. That's why it's now immoral to use for surgery (they used to!)."

I would consider that scientific proof against the fridge/freezer method.

 

[dionythicus]

I've seen accounts by people who have nearly frozen to death and although the cold was uncomfortable the freezing was not. They basically became exhausted and went to sleep/unconscious. They didn't feel anything at all. Later when they were warmed and the frostbitten areas were starting to receive circulation, they felt pain. Although I'm sure Dr. Maas is a fine vet, there is still the question of how they came about their answers. I would find it fascinating to see what sort of ways they determined that the snake felt whatever it felt.

It seems like you're ignoring some of the important elements to this topic. Reptiles and mammals are not the same. They do not respond physically the same to what's happening to them. If you reread Dr. Maas' quote in my initial post you will see that he explains that reptile biology is different and that they do not become unconscious as mammals do. There is no rational comparison of mammals vs reptiles in this discussion. We are strictly talking about reptiles.

 

[Susan]

"Insert deleted statement Re: Paying for a new yacht with increased income".

I can still sleep at night...

 

[crossmen]

I tryed to stay out of this but the more I read the further this topic bothers me. We assume that a snake is selfconscious and has what we determine to be feelings. I believe this is a false assumption from the start.

But in case it is not, then freezing which would take no more than an hour to completely kill a snake may still be the most humane way. Beheading leaves a snake's brain intact which would give it at least an hours worth of continued activity and therefore pain. As for crushing the animals head, imagine the grief you would get from the ASPCA for crushing your dog's or cat's skull for a quick and painless way to euthanize your pet. I think the person who tries this method would end up in jail or fined at the least, even though it may be as painless as any other method that is accepted.

The last question I will leave us with is. Who are we trying to comfort with a quick and "painless" death ourselves or the animal? Nature is not so comforting.

I may catch grief for this or you may not understand a word I have typed but remember it is only one guys opinion.

 

[carol]

Warning: A bit of a graphic post.

I guess for hatchlings and small juvies, you could give them straight to a king snake. But I really don't like the idea. I couldn't care less about a live mouse getting it this way, but I don't like mice. I'm also not sure that I want my kings developing any stronger or more "eager" feeding/hunting response.

And just so you are warned Dean, feeding live hatchlings to a King is pretty awful to watch and is rarely as "clean" as feeding off live mice. I often don't feel bad for the live mice because they are killed pretty instantly. As far as juvie and hatchling snakes, they don't really seem to feel the need to subdue their prey and just begin to eat it alive. Often the hatchling will try their best to avoid this by wrapping any part of their body that is not being bitten into around either the top or lower jaw. This does put a big delay in getting the hatchling in their belly and often ends in the king continuing to chomp on the corn waiting for them to give up and unwrap themselves. I figured they would end it quick like they do the mice and was pretty horrified when they didn't.

That being said. Who knows how many times a day this happens in the wild and how many wild hatchlings per clutch would eventually end up the same way. So you may decide it's still an option, but if so, I'd advise not to watch.

So I missed how the CO2 question was answered? Is this thought to be inhumane as well?

 

[Roy Munson]

And just so you are warned Dean...

Thanks for the info, Carol. I don't much like the idea of giving live corns to kings anyway, so that's probably not an option I'll pursue. And I couldn't even watch my kings take care of f/t hatchlings, so I definitely wouldn't watch a live feeding. :awcrap:

 

[CornCrazy]

First off, I was not directing anything at anyone one in particular, I was directing it at the argument being made by more than one person. When I wish to direct something at a particular person, I will say so up front and not try to hint around at it. There were no personal attacks in any of my responses, so please don't assume there was.

Now that that's out of the way, I got a response from Dr. Maas. He does not have the quoted paper handy, but he did state the following:

"Cooling does produce torpor, as I stated, but they are not unaware.
EEGs will show that there is still normal brain waves. That's not a coma,
just immobilized. Take a look at the function of a drug called
succinylcholine and the immobilization it produces- normal pain reception, normal brain function, all other sensory function normal, but unable to move and limp. That's why it's now immoral to use for surgery (they used to!)."

I would consider that scientific proof against the fridge/freezer method.

Well considering you pretty much quoted something I said, it appeared you were speaking to me. I didn't think you were hinting, either.

And as I said before...I am not willing to take one man's word to be true without doing some research of my own. Even if there are normal brain waves...how do we know whether the snake is feeling pain or not?

 

[vanderkm]

WARNING - Graphic description - alternative suggestion

There is no doubt that it remains impossible to know what an animal is feeling because monitoring brain wave activity cannot be translated into feelings. Also, everyone makes their own choices about what they consider acceptable in how they deal with their own animals and what they are willing to accept when they don't have to be the instrument of death.

It is often difficult to get access to recent scientific publications electronically unless you have a paid subscription the the journal, but here is one of the most recent publication I have that deals with euthanasia of reptiles - it includes references to the original papers dealing with carbon dioxide and decapitation - if anyone can access those - I cannot from my home computer.

http://www.vuw.ac.nz/srarnz/files/Gatrell_Kirk_Euthanasia_Reptiles.pdf

This document is older but again recommends that freezing, CO2 and decapitation are unacceptable as humane methods of killing. They report crocodilians remaining conscious for almost 2 hours after decapitation - not sure how they estabished consciousness, but regardless of the method, I prefer not to potentially inflict that on an animal in my care.
http://www.utu.fi/erill/kek/ref/la2.pdf

The concerns raised over the possibility that consciousness, and therefore pain perception, can exist after decapitation and that freezing may not cause death rapidly enough, means that I, personally, find these methods unacceptable. We opt for a hands on approach that is minimally messy and I am confident results in immediate destruction of the brain - so rapid unconsciousness and death - even if there is body movement for some time after.

We use pliers or vice grips - depending on the size of the snake - and we use those that have a flat crushing surface. It is relatively easy to hold the neck of the snake firmly enough to ensure that the pliers are positioned accurately over the braincase and in a single crushing blow you can destroy the brain (you can be sure you have done it right because the brain matter typically is forced out the nose). This is as close as I think you can come to effectively pithing (destroying the brain) a snake without prior anesthesia and proper tools to enter the braincase from behind. It provides for massive head trauma with more control than a blunt instrument.

Yes, it would not be acceptable to use on a kitten or puppy, but not because it is not humane (rapid unconsciousnes followed by death), because it would be considered brutal. It is the best compromise we have been able to arrive at to provide a quick death.


mary v.

 

[MegF.]

I don't understand how a brain that is decapitated can "feel" Feel requires that nerves go to the body and come back in order to be interpreted by the brain. If the brain is not attached to the body, there is no communication with it. Second, the brain requires bloodflow to remain alive. That's why after 3 minutes of oxygen deprivation a human brain is completely damaged and there's death after 5. Reptiles are admittedly more primitive, so even if the brain remained undamaged for a longer period, how is it conscious and working without any fresh blood to keep it properly functioning. I've been fortunate in that I only had one baby to euthanize which I did by cooling for a long period (overnight) and then freezing. I hope I don't have to do so again, but from what I had read, this was supposed to be the most humane way. This is not the first time this subject has come up. Both examples that you stated above said Freezing was not acceptable but I don't go straight to a freezer. I'm not sure how I would go about doing it now. I would have to look into it more. I've seen numerous incidences that point to a very low ability to feel pain i.e. severe burns from laying on a hot source and prey eating a snake alive with no indication that the animal made any move to escape.

 

[CaptainJack]

Would there not be some nerves on the head's side of the cut that could still communicate with the brain? If reptiles have lower requirements for oxygen and what have you than mammals do then to me it makes perfect sense that the brain would still be able to send and receive messages for a time after decapitation. Of course it would be impossible for the snake to feel what is happening to the part of its body below the neck, but why is it unbelievable that the snake might be able to feel the pain from the part of it's body still connected to the brain?
Even in mammals I think we're still unsure as to how long and to what degree pain and consciousness are experienced after decapitation.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

So I missed how the CO2 question was answered? Is this thought to be inhumane as well?

Just wanted to quickly comment that I for one have euthanized a snake with CO2 and it worked. I've seen posts here and other places where people claim CO2 does not work for snakes because their rate of breathing is lower than mammals and I seem to recall trying to argue this point before. Although all I have to go on is my own personal experience, I did have to euthanize a hatchling once and I used CO2. I put its container in a bucket with dry ice and covered up the bucket after adding a bit of water to get the CO2 to release and the hatchling did die, and I don't feel it suffered as much as it would have in the freezer. I don't know why people claim this method doesn't work. Anyways I have also done the fridge - freezer thing but I think I will use the CO2 again if I have to euthanize any more snakes, especially after reading the info Dionythicus posted in this thread which does seem to come from a very professional and knowledgeable source.