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Okeetee Questions

captainjack0000

captainjack0000

Student
Alright, so I thought I had this all sorted out, but then I did some reading, some people on other forums raised some interesting questions, and it made me think of some questions, and now I'm confused.

There are normal (or classic) corns:regular, wild type corn snakes. These are then divded into local types, such as Miami phase or Keys phase. I have heard the term, "phase" with these types. But then I see people get corrected when they use the term "Okeetee phase". And then there are Abbott's Okeetee, which is not a phase, but a certain bloodline from a certain breeder (Lee Abbott). But then, I hear of Carolina corns, which are not Okeetee? but regular regular corns?, which are somehow different than Alabamas because they're from a different place?

If we operate under the assumption that true versions of any of these depend upon the specific location from which it, or its lineage was collected, then what do we call any random corn snake that exhibits the colors often associated with these locales. And more to this end, exactly what are these characterisitcs?

For example, ignoring the locale requirement, I have read that an "Okeetee" is simply a classic corn with particularly bright reds and oranges (which sounds pretty subjective to me), and complete, un-broken black saddles. I have also read that the Abbott's Okeetee is this style, but with extra thick black borders. Is this the correct definition of an "Okeetee-looking" or "Abbotts Okeetee-looking" corn snake, and if not, then what is the correct definition? What are the correct physical traits of a Keys, Miami, and Alabama, and how do these differ from a regular regular?

For example, if I found a snake that looked like this in north Florida*
http://iansvivarium.com/morphs/thumbs/large/elaphe_guttata/keys/keys-a.jpg
what should I call it?

*I am not saying that I found one, or that I would find one, but this is a hypothetical.
 
Further Thought

I ask this because, ignoring the locale requirement, it seems like the definition of these types vary by person, and on one hand I feel like any corn snake without a known locale lineage should simply be called a corn, but on the other hand, that seems to be unfair to the corns that could be suspected of a certain lineage. It seems even more complicated because since we're dealing with wild types, it doesn't seem like breeding them out would give any definitive answers.
 
To me, an Okeetee PHASE should be bright oranges and reds with thick black borders (same with reverse Okeetees, only with white borders). A Miami PHASE should be a silver grey background with little to no brown/orange in it and bright red saddles. As of this time, I've never seen any Keys phase or Alabama phase, only locality animals of those areas.

Edit: I've always heard Carolina just being referred to for normals that don't fit any other phases, unless it's specified as a Carolina locale.
 
in my understanding, PHASE is used to deceive corns that exhibit traits of certain localities. So a okeetee phase shows bright reds/orange saddles bordered by thick black bands. same with Miami's and most others. it's simply a term added to show they have the correct characteristics relating to said corns from those localities. It doesn't mean they are from the specific lines, just that they look like them. so this is how to describe the random corns that pop up, from lines away from said trait.
we have several lines which originally came from keys corns. I label the ones that resemble keys as keys phase even though i breed away from this locality. Doesn't mean they breed true or reproduce similar looking babies, just that visually they look like keys corns
 
The term Carolina Corn is used in Europe to describe the wild-type or normal.

Abbotts Okeetees are those which are bred by Lee Abbott, or descended from his lines with no outcrossing. They are known for the extreme thickness of the black borders.

Love Okeetees were perfected by Kathy Love and are those snakes descended from her lines with no outcrossing. White stippling around borders is absent or reduced. Each color is very smooth. The dark longitudinal striping has been bred out. (Paraphrased from 2011 CMG)

There are various locality Okeetees descended from wild-caught parents.

There are Okeetee phase animals which have extremely bright red and orange colors separated by thick, bold black borders. (2011 Cornsnake Morph Guide)

Miami phase describes animals with a ground color that is gray, tan or somewhere in between. Cornsnakes from anywhere can take on this look, so the name does not imply a locality, nor does any corn coming from that area automatically qualify as a "Miami phase." (2011 Cornsnake Morph Guide)

Keys corns have an overall lighter appearance, similar to hypos. The belly checkering is generally not as strong, or is even absent. The ground color tends more towards shades of tan, and there is generally less contrast between the ground and saddle colors. The black borders around the saddles are less prominent or entirely absent. (2011 Cornsnake Morph Guide)

Really, the Cornsnake Morph Guide should be the third book anyone interested in cornsnakes buys. While I was looking for a link, I ran across this, which I hadn't seen before...
 
I'm not trying to be nit-picky, but I will be anyway.
thick, bold black borders

How thick is thick?

I wonder because my corn (seen here in this video) has been called by people both an Okeetee phase and a normal.

Does it depend on what I want to call him? :D
 
I can see why people would say that. It would be nice to see what his parents looked like.
 
The problem with yours is that you don't know. He's pretty btw, but generally you'd expect borders on most Okes to be at least twice as thick, and usually thicker still. Some localities weren't bred for thick borders tho, and didn't have them in the first place. The one thing true Okeetee Phase corns, such as Loves, Abbotts, Extremes etc is they are all linebred from Okeetee locality snakes. Doesn't mean they are 100% "Okeetee" either, but that's another thread entirely ;)
 
It was sold as an Okeetee, so somebody somewhere thought he would turn out as an Okeetee.

Do the borders thicken with age? He's changed alot as it is since I first got him as a baby.
 
It was sold as an Okeetee
Click to expand...

I've seen a lot of false advertising claims of both Okeetee and Miami phase Corns (see "Crimson Miami" post). I would not use the name someone used to sell it as a way to ID it. People often think "Okeetee" sounds better than "normal."

As far as border thickness, borders tend to be thicker around tail and thinner in the middle of the snake. If you posted pics here and people mostly agreed that it is a normal, then that's what I'd consider it to be.

Here's a Reverse Okeetee that I produced last year. It has thicker blotch borders than a "standard" Amelanistic Corn.

2013revokeetee_zpsa6f3ab44.jpg
 
This snake has what I would call extremely thick borders. Raven's colors are still developing; he is a 2011.
 

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Thank you! Raven is the product of the Strange Cargo Halloween Okeetee x a Buckskin Okeetee female. Buckskin Okeetees have a ground color which is more light deerskin tan-colored, rather than bright orange. This gives a more contrasty look to the red and black saddles. So that cross tones down the background orange without completely eliminating it, resulting in a high-contrast snake.
 
For five years I hunted the Okeetee Hunt Club for corns every spring/summer. Well, If I can count the 1st two years I went down there and only found DOAs and got hassled by cops and security. I met John Albrecht down there and another person or two on this forum. No idea where any of those guys are now. I think the patrolling Jeeps of ex-Marines ruined even thinking you could park a vehicle and run & flip logs. Davie Jones was kind enough to take me out and tell me all about the place, and where he had set out tin. We found corns I had only hoped to see. David was old school, he hunted with Kauffield. One year, his number just went to machine, and then was disconnected. I don't even know if he is alive.
But at the end of the day, what people call Okeetees aren't typical of what crawls around there. I love captive breeding, but if you imagined the Incredible Hulk looking more like a swimmer than a bodybuilder, that is more the truth from my experience of what is called "Okeetee" vs. what locality animals look like. But selecting for getting them near the Abbott and Love stuff doesn't seem to take long. Not that I have, yet...
 
The seller is a reputable person with positive remarks from the BOI. He is apprently well known in the BP and hot community. I know he worked in the molecular genetics department at UF for a while and over at Medtoxin labs. It wasn't like a random Craigslist add. So perhaps it is an Okeetee Phase if the parents were both as such, but given the way genetics work, mine did not end up with the extra thick black borders.
 
Nanci said:
The term Carolina Corn is used in Europe to describe the wild-type or normal.

Abbotts Okeetees are those which are bred by Lee Abbott, or descended from his lines with no outcrossing. They are known for the extreme thickness of the black borders.

Love Okeetees were perfected by Kathy Love and are those snakes descended from her lines with no outcrossing. White stippling around borders is absent or reduced. Each color is very smooth. The dark longitudinal striping has been bred out. (Paraphrased from 2011 CMG)
Click to expand...

How many thick bordered Okeetees were originally collected at the Hunt Club? There must have been a good number of them for them to never have been out-crossed. Because otherwise by F4 or F5 there would be "issues".

tspuckler said:
I've seen a lot of false advertising claims of both Okeetee and Miami phase Corns (see "Crimson Miami" post). I would not use the name someone used to sell it as a way to ID it. People often think "Okeetee" sounds better than "normal."

Here's a Reverse Okeetee that I produced last year. It has thicker blotch borders than a "standard" Amelanistic Corn.

2013revokeetee_zpsa6f3ab44.jpg
Click to expand...

No amel corn snakes were ever found at the Hunt Club. "Reverse Okeetee" is a trade name. But it sounds better then "amel corn snake with thick saddle borders". Is "Reverse Okeetee" an accepted false advertising claim? What is the reverse of a Hunt Club corn snake anyways? The opposite of the orange background color is blue, the opposite of black saddle borders is white, and the opposite of red saddles is green. So if a "Reverse Okeetee" was really a "Reverse Okeetee", I'd get one, that's for sure. I can't find the smiley face emotional icon scratching his head cartoon picture to stick on this paragraph. That's an attractive snake Tim. Yeah, I just 'had to go there'. & yes, "Okeetee" sounds better (and less confusing) then "Okeetee phase".
 
Dave, have you read accounts of snake collecting in the "old days?" Snake hunters would go out and bring home 10's or 100's of snakes at a time and sell them into the pet trade.

Kind of like, you know how they had to pass the turtle collecting law here in Florida to prevent our lakes of being stripped of ALL turtles? (For Asia).
 
The thing with Reverse Okeetee is, it's a trade name and everyone instantly knows clearly the snake the term describes.
 
Chip said:
I met John Albrecht down there and another person or two on this forum. No idea where any of those guys are now.
Click to expand...

The Okeetee's I sent to Bob were F1's from snakes John collected at the OHC; haven't heard or seen him around for a couple years now...
 
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