Pastel Ghost Motley vs Pastel Motley

[PirateCaptainLoo]

What's the difference?

 

[tyflier]

A Pastel Motley is an anery motley with a lot of nice peaches and "pastel" tones over the grey. A Pastel Ghost Motley is a ghost motley(anery and hypo A) with the same hues and colors...

 

[Josua]

A Pastel Motley is an anery motley with a lot of nice peaches and "pastel" tones over the grey. A Pastel Ghost Motley is a ghost motley(anery and hypo A) with the same hues and colors...

That's not the case here in the Netherlands.
A pastel motley is basically a very nice ghost motley.
So both names are the same morph.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Yeah, I agree with Josua...

Pastel Motley is a Selective Bred Ghost while a Ghost Motley is just a regular Ghost (Question should be what is difference between Pastel Motley & Ghost Motley as Pastel Motley & Pastel Ghost Motley would be the same thing).

I purchased a Pastel Motley pair from Rich last year (he may have been the one to coin the phrase) and they were Ghosts, not Anery.

 

[tyflier]

The '07 Cornsnake Morph Guide suggests that most people use the terms pastel, ghost, and motley differently, and also suggests asking the breeder how they use the terms. It says that some breeders use the term ghost whether or not hypo is present. Some use the term only when hypo is present, and, apparently, some don't use the term ghost at all. And when you consider the "hypo-ish" effect that motley has, it is possible to have very pastel-looking anery motleys.

It is my opinion that the term "ghost" *should* be used to differentiate the presence of hypomelanism(ghost) or not(anery), and when purchasing, you should try to get the breeder to be specific about the use of ther terms. That is how I plan on using the terms if/when I produce some next season...which I absolutely should...

 

[Blue Apple Herps]

To me pastel motley and pastel ghost motley are the same. If one had an anery that was pastel then I suspect they should call it pastel anery motley. Just my 2¢

 

[Pruddock]

I always thought "Pastel" just meant a very pretty ghost with lots of pink tones on the saddles.

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Well, I really don't think the CMG is the absolute in defining terminology.

You also didn't say "the '07 Cornsnake Morph Guide suggests" but made a statement as if it is a definite.

IMO, an Anery Motley is an Anery Motley and Pastel shouldn't be used with it because I believe the original terminology of Pastel Motley was meant for Ghosts. :shrugs:

 

[Susan]

It is my opinion that the term "ghost" *should* be used to differentiate the presence of hypomelanism(ghost) or not(anery), and when purchasing, you should try to get the breeder to be specific about the use of ther terms. That is how I plan on using the terms if/when I produce some next season...which I absolutely should...

Agreed! I am one of those breeders that have been known to use the term "pastel" to describe both anerys and ghosts, with and without the presence of motley. I don't use it often with anerys, but when I do, I make sure that there is no mistake as to the exact genetics involved with each individual. If hypo is involved, I always use the term "ghost" or even "hypo anery" to completely avoid any confusion. I also let people know that "pastel" can mean more than one thing in my snakes (definite pink/peach saddle color or an over-all pinkish wash) and that in hatchlings and even sub-adults, the look is strictly subjective and may not be guaranteed or permanent. Here are some examples of various "pastel" corns in my collection:

"Pastel" ghost motley
"Pastel" ghost
"Pastel" anery zigzag
"Pastel" anery motley at 3 years old
Same "Pastel" anery motley at 5 years old

 

[PirateCaptainLoo]

Thanks guys for all the info/opinions; the pictures helped especially I can tell now that a lot of it has to do with from what breeder you decide to buy from!

 

[tyflier]

Well, I really don't think the CMG is the absolute in defining terminology.

You also didn't say "the '07 Cornsnake Morph Guide suggests" but made a statement as if it is a definite.

IMO, an Anery Motley is an Anery Motley and Pastel shouldn't be used with it because I believe the original terminology of Pastel Motley was meant for Ghosts. :shrugs:

[emphasis mine...]

Great...all 3 of us had an opinion. They were all opinions. None of us(yourself included) stated that as such. I guess my statement is the only one you have a problem with.

And while you may not consider the CMG to be absolute, it IS the only publication that I have ever heard of that has made an effort to define and standardize the world of subjective opinions that everyone seems to have. Perhaps if a few more people tried to follow published examples, rather than continuing to have a different opinion(simply because they want to), there could someday BE a guide that WOULD be considered "definitive"...but I doubt that will ever happen. Until it does...the CMG is the closest thing we have as a culture.

Regardless of what anyone's opinion on the term "pastel" is...the term "ghost" has ALWAYS meant a combination of anery "A" and hypo "A". Should that change? Better yet...is that open to interpretation or a matter of opinion? :shrugs:

If I have an anery motley with extreme pastel overtones...it is my opinion that it should be termed "pastel motley". If I have a ghost with extreme pastel overtones, it should be called "pastel ghost motley", utilizing the term "ghost" to denote the presence of hypo "A". Unfortunately, your opinion, nor anyone else's, is not going to change how I use those phrases. IMO, they are NOT interchangeable, as you would like them to be, and I won't use them that way.

I will label all of my offspring in the manner which I see fit, and will be certain to provide as much information as possible regarding the genetics involved with every snake I sell. One thing I will NOT do, is use an existing term(pastel ghost) to identify something that is NOT a ghost...

Below is NOT a ghost...but he is as much a pastel as any other non-hypo pastel I have seen, and lighter than some ghosts that I have seen posted... :shrugs:

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

Unfortunately, your opinion, nor anyone else's, is not going to change how I use those phrases. IMO, they are NOT interchangeable, as you would like them to be, and I won't use them that way.

I will label all of my offspring in the manner which I see fit, and will be certain to provide as much information as possible regarding the genetics involved with every snake I sell. One thing I will NOT do, is use an existing term(pastel ghost) to identify something that is NOT a ghost...

You contradict yourself here. By these statements you've made, you don't agree with the statement you made in the same post saying:

if a few more people tried to follow published examples, rather than continuing to have a different opinion there could someday BE a guide that WOULD be considered "definitive""

I don't think a handful of people should be the deciding factor in terminology. Unless of course they did originate the mutation, then in a sense it could be looked at as their "right."

SMR has some very nice "Pastel Motley" in their Photo Gallery. They as an example look like Ghosts to me, though I could be wrong.

BTW, you are the only one who stated that a Pastel was an Anery when I made my post.

 

[tyflier]

Well...that was interesting...

I didn't contradict myself, one bit. I will label my offspring in a manner that is appropriate. It is my choice where I get my terminology. I choose to follow the "guidelines" provided with the existing literature. I fail to see any contradiction...

FWIW...I am not the only person that considers "pastel motley" to be a pastel anery motley, nor am I the only person to feel that a "ghost", of ANY variety, should only be labled as such if it contains both anery and hypo types "A" in a homozygous state. Hmm...still no contradiction...

Further, I seriously doubt that you are the only one to use the term "pastel motley" ONLY when the animal has anery and hypo types "A" in a homozygous state. I imagine that this is one of many reasons that the author of the CMG does not state his opinion of how the terms are used, he merely makes note of the variations from breeder to breeder, and cautions the buy to beware.

So with all that said...I still don't see why you aparrently have a problem with me stating my opinion on the terms in no more nor less vociferous a manner than you yourself have...They are interpretations and opinions. Nothing more, nothing less...So what's the problem? :shrugs:

 

[tyflier]

...BTW, you are the only one who stated that a Pastel was an Anery when I made my post....

Yea...I know. Just because you agree with someone else doesn't make their reply less of an opinion than someone you disagree with...

 

[Susan]

Just thought I would stir the pot a little more. IMO, the term "pastel" could even be used to describe the more colorful lavenders and hypo lavenders. I think it would come in handy as some people don't want or care for the peachy color in their lavenders.

And if you want a definition that goes back a bit and from one of THE sources, Kathy Love, in The Corn Snake Manual (copyright 2000) says, on page 105, that "The adjective 'Pastel' is catching on as a prefix name for motleys whenever a significant amount of pinkish-orange coloration develops between their blotches." There is no mention of anery, ghosts, or any other color morph in association with that term. So do we really need a "heated" discussion over semantics?

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

I'm certainly not getting heated.

Tyflier here can't handle an opposing opinion in regards to terminology or the use of a "publication."

Very interesting information, Susan...I will have to pull out my older copies and check it out...Though I thought the CMG has only been out since 2005...But maybe I'm crazy!

 

[Russell]

I'm certainly not getting heated.

Tyflier here can't handle an opposing opinion in regards to terminology or the use of a "publication."

Very interesting information, Susan...I will have to pull out my older copies and check it out...Though I thought the CMG has only been out since 2005...But maybe I'm crazy!

Yes Stephanie, your crazy! :grin01:

Only teasing!

But anyhow, I agree with you as earlier stated that ONE'S opinion isn't necessarily a fact for everyone. Which is why it states in the cornsnake morph guide that different breeders will use the terminology that we use to describe different things. So saying as you did earlier that the author didn't have merit is odd since the author didn't state any absolute for the term, he merely stated that diff people use the term Pastel differently. Thus the need for exact records of animals as to what they are in terms that ARE defined. Such as Hypo and Anery. All of us can agree what a Hypo and Anery are supposed to be. But how can we all agree on what a Pastel is? Cause now that's a relative term!

I've seen stuff called Pastel that I couldn't agree with. It's now all an individual's OPINION on what they see. How much pink in a ghost should be present before you call it a pastel ghost? I've seen snakes advertised as Pastel Motleys that didn't have a lick of pink or peach. So were these people wrong? That's up for debate. And why Chuck states in his cornsnake morph guide that pastel is a term to describe a snake rather than an actual genetic look. A snake can't be het for pastel, but it can be het for anery.

I HOPE I've cleared the air a little bit here! And Susan you did a great job showing some examples of Pastel. You do indeed have some gorgeous snakes.

And Stephanie, join the club, we all have to admit to being a bit...crazy... :crazy02: :grin01:

 

[tyflier]

I'm certainly not getting heated.

Tyflier here can't handle an opposing opinion in regards to terminology or the use of a "publication."

Very interesting information, Susan...I will have to pull out my older copies and check it out...Though I thought the CMG has only been out since 2005...But maybe I'm crazy!

You are absolutely wrong there, blckkat. I have no problem with your opinion, and if you go back and actually READ what I wrote, I made the statement that I am positive you are NOT the only one with the same opinion.

What I have a problem with is the apparrent dislike of my opinion that you seem to be showing.

So what's the deal? From the moment I stated my opinion, and my resource of information, you have gone out of your way to discredit me, and show that I am wrong. But the bottom line is...it's an OPINION. Therefor, I CAN'T be wrong. And your "contradictions" are simply not there.

And now you are trying to say that this is all about ME not accepting different opinions???

I really don't understand what you are on about. What ever it is that you are taking with your breakfast...could you ship me some? I would really like to be that far out of touch with reality for just a little bit. This whole topic went WAY off course, simply because my opinion was different than yours...and YOU took it there...not me. I never insulted your intelligence, I never questioned the validity of your opinion, and I never discounted your cited sources of information...oh wait...you didn't provide any. Regardless...I never did any of those things to you, yet you have taken every opportunity in this topic to try and discredit me, my opinion, and the CMG.

So what is REALLY your problem, Stephanie?!?! :shrugs:

 

[TripleMoonsExotic]

What I have a problem with is the apparrent dislike of my opinion that you seem to be showing.

Assumptions, assumptions. :bang:

I never discounted your cited sources of information...oh wait...you didn't provide any.

Oh wait, READ...

I purchased a Pastel Motley pair from Rich last year (he may have been the one to coin the phrase) and they were Ghosts, not Anery.

I think you seriously need to take something to calm your nerves. You are flipping out for absolutely no reason.

 

[tyflier]

Assumptions, assumptions. :bang:

Oh wait, READ...

I think you seriously need to take something to calm your nerves. You are flipping out for absolutely no reason.

I'm not flipping out. I'm pointing out.

You can continue this discussion as much as you'd like. The fact is, I have done nothing other than correct you when you have erroneously tried to discredit me. From your second reply, you have done nothing but try to discredit me, and I am simply wondering why that is? It has nothing to do with a difference of opinion. That's just what you want to make it.

Why do you so desperately want to make me look bad in this topic? What is it about my opinion that makes you want to prove it wrong so fiercely?

From your second post, you have insulted my integrity, my intelligence, my resources of information, and my opinion.

I have never been unaccepting of someone else's opinion, ever, in any topic on this forum.

I have never tried to speak outside of my own realm of information, without stating, as such, that I may not be the best source of that information, or stating that my post IS an assumption, or opinion.

I have never used what could be called "questionable sources" when citing information. IF the source is somewhat questionable, I am sure to note this, as much as possible.

Don't get this twisted...I am not "bent out of shape" over a difference of opinion on the use of these terms. I don't appreciate the things you have directly said about me. I'm not talking about "assumptions, assumptions". I'm talking about the words you have used in your posts.

But I am FAR from flipping out. Trust me when I say that things like this, on the internet, over an open forum where opinions are as free and easy to come by as...well...rear ends, is not even close to getting me upset. This simply isn't important enough to worry about once I turn off my monitor...