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PILE-O LAVAS & LAVA CINDERS !!

The cinder offspring of het cinder x het cinder should have a roughly equal sex ratio.
Click to expand...

MY BAD! The cinder offspring should be skewed toward male or female, depending on if the dame had the cinder mutation on her Z or W chromosome, respectively.
 
It looks like you have done some of these crosses, since any non cinder gene can simply be ignored in the cross because of mendel's law of independent assortment.

For example, your clutch#2 this year. Since you have two male peppermints listed for sale, I am guessing the het cinder dame has the cinder mutation on her Z chromosome. I'm guessing you probably did not get any female peppermints from that pairing?

Of course, we will need to pool lots of numbers, and for het cinder females, we can only pool results from that same dame, since a different female may have the cinder mutation on a different sex chromosome.
 
Walter Smith said:
SIRE: Cinder X DAME: het Cinder
SIRE: het Cinder X DAME: Cinder
SIRE: Cinder X DAME: Cinder
SIRE: het Cinder X DAME: het Cinder
Click to expand...

If I understood correctly, you've left out 2 possibilities. Or really, lumped some things together that are not the same. I believe the list should look like this:

SIRE: Cinder X DAME: het Cinder on Z chromosome
SIRE: Cinder X DAME: het Cinder on W chromosome
SIRE: het Cinder X DAME: Cinder
SIRE: Cinder X DAME: Cinder
SIRE: het Cinder X DAME: het Cinder on Z chromosome
SIRE: het Cinder X DAME: het Cinder on W chromosome

And the outcomes should be as follows:
SIRE: Cinder X DAME: het Cinder on Z chromosome
- 50% male cinders, 50% female het cinders on Z chromosome, so will produce only male cinders. No female visuals. No male hets.
SIRE: Cinder X DAME: het Cinder on W chromosome
- 50% female cinders, 50% male het cinders (on Z chromosome of course since males are both Z anyway). No male visuals. No female hets.
SIRE: het Cinder X DAME: Cinder
- a normal 50/50 clutch with a normal 50/50 sex ratio in both cinders and het cinders, but all female het cinders have cinder on W chromosome, so will produce only female cinders
SIRE: Cinder X DAME: Cinder
- a normal 100% cinder clutch with a normal 50/50 sex ratio
SIRE: het Cinder X DAME: het Cinder on Z chromosome
- 25% male cinders, 25% male het cinders, 25% female het cinders on Z chromosome, so will produce only male cinders, 25% female normals (don't even carry the het). No visual female cinders, and no male normals (all males carry the het)
SIRE: het Cinder X DAME: het Cinder on W chromosome
- 25% female cinders, 25% female het cinders on W chromosome, 25% male het cinders, 25% male normals (don't carry the het). No visual male cinders, and no female normals (all females carry the het).

I HOPE I got that right. It was kinda confusing considering factors I'm not used to considering.
 
Yes kc261, but we cannot know whether the female has the mutation on her Z or W chromosome without mating her to a cinder male, and in a way some of this would presuppose what we are trying to prove!

Yes your predictions are correct, however there will be minor deviations because of crossover events.
 
Yes kc261, but we cannot know whether the female has the mutation on her Z or W chromosome without mating her to a cinder male
Click to expand...

Unless of course her mother is homozygous cinder, in which case we know she must have it on her W chromosome if she is a het.
 
Or if her dad is homozygous cinder, she must have it on her Z chromosome. Bah, I am confusing myself and I should really know better!
 
kc261 said:
If I understood correctly, you've left out 2 possibilities. Or really, lumped some things together that are not the same. I believe the list should look like this:

SIRE: Cinder X DAME: het Cinder on Z chromosome
SIRE: Cinder X DAME: het Cinder on W chromosome
SIRE: het Cinder X DAME: Cinder
SIRE: Cinder X DAME: Cinder
SIRE: het Cinder X DAME: het Cinder on Z chromosome
SIRE: het Cinder X DAME: het Cinder on W chromosome

And the outcomes should be as follows:
SIRE: Cinder X DAME: het Cinder on Z chromosome
- 50% male cinders, 50% female het cinders on Z chromosome, so will produce only male cinders. No female visuals. No male hets.
SIRE: Cinder X DAME: het Cinder on W chromosome
- 50% female cinders, 50% male het cinders (on Z chromosome of course since males are both Z anyway). No male visuals. No female hets.
SIRE: het Cinder X DAME: Cinder
- a normal 50/50 clutch with a normal 50/50 sex ratio in both cinders and het cinders, but all female het cinders have cinder on W chromosome, so will produce only female cinders
SIRE: Cinder X DAME: Cinder
- a normal 100% cinder clutch with a normal 50/50 sex ratio
SIRE: het Cinder X DAME: het Cinder on Z chromosome
- 25% male cinders, 25% male het cinders, 25% female het cinders on Z chromosome, so will produce only male cinders, 25% female normals (don't even carry the het). No visual female cinders, and no male normals (all males carry the het)
SIRE: het Cinder X DAME: het Cinder on W chromosome
- 25% female cinders, 25% female het cinders on W chromosome, 25% male het cinders, 25% male normals (don't carry the het). No visual male cinders, and no female normals (all females carry the het).

I HOPE I got that right. It was kinda confusing considering factors I'm not used to considering.
Click to expand...

WHEW !!!
To be honest, I don't have the depth of knowledge on genetics as far as chromosomes in this manor, but what I gather is the best breeding that could be done to get a equal sex ratio of HOMO Cinders is:

SIRE: Cinder X DAME: Cinder...............correct??

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
 
Or sire het cinder x dame cinder. As long as the female is homozygous, there will be an equal sex ration of cinder males and females.
 
DuxorW said:
Yes kc261, but we cannot know whether the female has the mutation on her Z or W chromosome without mating her to a cinder male, and in a way some of this would presuppose what we are trying to prove!

Yes your predictions are correct, however there will be minor deviations because of crossover events.
Click to expand...

Well. We can't let the scientific method get in our way, can we?

Ah well. It is at least good to know I understand what you are saying.

I have realized it doesn't explain the BP banana thing though. Unless there is another piece I'm not understanding. In banana BPs, males are supposedly either "male makers" or "female makers". But obviously the male BP would have to have the banana gene on one of his Z chromosomes, cuz he doesn't even have a W chromosome. So how do you get a "female maker" male? That implies that somehow he forces the female he is mated with to produce a female egg when he produces a banana sperm. Banana is a codom morph, so at least you can see the hets, but that doesn't seem to help explain it. Unless... banana is recessive the way color blindness is recessive. You don't have to have 2 copies of it... you just have to not have a copy of normal. Argh. Not sure that works either. :confused:
 
Yes I have some ideas about a better explanation for the banana morph and if I clarify it I will post in the miscellaneous forum.
 
DuxorW said:
I assume you mean if all the cinder offspring are male? If all the cinder offspring are male, it means the female had the cinder mutation on her Z chromosome and the wild type allele on her W chromosome. Thus, all the males should be cinder and all the females should be het cinder on their Z chromosome. So the NON cinder offspring will all be female unless there is a crossover.
Click to expand...

Yes, that's what I mean.

SO, if this is the case then that means my DAME: Het Cinder has to have the Cinder mutation on the Z chromosome due to the outcome of my breeding correct ??

If so knowing that, then using her to a SIRE: Het Cinder male should give a 50/50 sex ratio to the HOMO Cinder offspring.........is that right ??

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
 
Unfortunately no, males are ZZ and females are ZW, so if the cinder mutation is on her Z chromosome and you mate her to a het cinder male, half the males will be cinder (the ones that inherited the mutant Z from their fathers and the Z from their mother) and the non cinder males should be hets because of the normal Z from their father and the mutant Z from their mother.

All the females received their W chromosome from their mother. Absent a crossover event, this W chromosome does not have the cinder mutation on it. Half the female offspring will be het cinder(if they get the mutant Z from dad) and half will not even carry it (if they get he wild type Z from dad).

So 25% male cinder 25% male het cinder 25% female het cinder 25% female homozygous wild type, unless there are crossovers during meiosis in the mother.
 
DuxorW said:
Unfortunately no, males are ZZ and females are ZW, so if the cinder mutation is on her Z chromosome and you mate her to a het cinder male, half the males will be cinder (the ones that inherited the mutant Z from their fathers and the Z from their mother) and the non cinder males should be hets because of the normal Z from their father and the mutant Z from their mother.

All the females received their W chromosome from their mother. Absent a crossover event, this W chromosome does not have the cinder mutation on it. Half the female offspring will be het cinder(if they get the mutant Z from dad) and half will not even carry it (if they get he wild type Z from dad).

So 25% male cinder 25% male het cinder 25% female het cinder 25% female homozygous wild type, unless there are crossovers during meiosis in the mother.
Click to expand...

Ok, gottcha.

I tell ya, this is VERY interesting stuff, even though I don't understand it 100%, but I am trying to do so.

I just know after the breedings with my Cinder lines over the past couple years, I did notice SOMETHING going on with the sex ratios and didn't think it was just bad luck OR Murphy at play, especially at this years breeding point.

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
 
Yeah, hopefully this can help some. As long as your female is homozygous cinder your sex ratios should be even. This makes a female peppermint het caramel very useful if you want to make female buttermints!
 
DuxorW said:
Yes I have some ideas about a better explanation for the banana morph and if I clarify it I will post in the miscellaneous forum.
Click to expand...

Awesome. I'll be looking forward to reading that. Pls send me a PM or something if you remember when you post it to be sure I don't miss it.
 
I tell ya, this is VERY interesting stuff, even though I don't understand it 100%, but I am trying to do so.
Click to expand...

I confused myself multiple times, and genetics is my job!
 
DuxorW said:
Yeah, hopefully this can help some. As long as your female is homozygous cinder your sex ratios should be even. This makes a female peppermint het caramel very useful if you want to make female buttermints!
Click to expand...

LOL.........Gottcha.
The only thing is apparently I can't produce a female for myself :awcrap:

I really appreciate you coming here and taking the time to explain this to try and help us figure this out.
I think I have a small grasp of it..........um, maybe..............LOL

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
 
Do you have any female peppermints to make some from? I might have to hook my female peppermint up to a buttermint to make some female peppermint het caramels now that they are so valuable, lol!
 
DuxorW said:
Do you have any female peppermints to make some from? I might have to hook my female peppermint up to a buttermint to make some female peppermint het caramels now that they are so valuable, lol!
Click to expand...

No, I sure don't.

Here is a question for ya, say I breed my Buttermint male to a female that does not carry the Cinder gene AT ALL.

How would those F1 "HET" Cinders fall into play as far as the sex ratio they would produce??

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
 
Walter Smith said:
LOL.........Gottcha.
The only thing is apparently I can't produce a female for myself :awcrap:

I really appreciate you coming here and taking the time to explain this to try and help us figure this out.
I think I have a small grasp of it..........um, maybe..............LOL

Walter
:crazy02:BOUT' CORNS !!
Click to expand...

Nah... all you have to do is produce LOTS of cinders until you finally get one that crosses over to the W chromosome. It's rare, but since female cinders do exist, it happens. Or at least it has happened once, and all the rest of the females descend from her. So that means it happens at least once in....how many cinders have been produced so far?

Probably much easier to just buy a female cinder.
 
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