Please Help Me ID this Odd-Looking Striped Morph the Just Hatched

[wendhend]

I just hatched three of these odd-looking pale orange and tan babies. The one in the first photo is the only one in its clutch, and there were two in a different clutch. They are all sired by the same male, and I have never hatched anything quite like them. I imagine they will be brighter after their first shed, but can anybody recognize what morph they are?

 

[Firefur]

Cute beyond that no clue

 

[TimeBomb]

Do you happen to have any pictures of the parents and/or know what the parents are? Maybe somebody around here can correctly identify it based on the pictures, but it would be super useful to see the parents.

-Travis

 

[Nanci]

They look like vanishing normals or hypos, to me.

 

[blacktip]

They look like vanishing normals or hypos, to me.

I was thinking the same. Looked like vanishing stripe normals to me at first, but I can see now how they might be hypo.

 

[Nanci]

I'm more inclined to say normal. Hypos are more orangey. Here are some normal stripes I hatched. Not quite as vanished.

 

[wendhend]

Tessera Stripes, perhaps?

Thank you for your replies! I intentionally didn't say what the parents were initially in order to see if anyone else would see what I think I am seeing without me suggesting what genes might be involved. As far as color goes, I do think they are normal rather than hypo, but the vanishing stripes is what's making it difficult to ID them, and none of the parents have that sort of thing at all.

The baby in the first photo is from my tessera stripe male now proven het anery cinder and hypo bred to my amel het cinder stripe female. The two babies in the bottom photo were produced from the same tessera stipe male bred to my fire het anery stripe female. So, I actually think they may all be tessera stripes rather than normal stripes, but with the stripes vanishing like that and not letting you see whether they would be continuous to the end or broken up, it's hard to tell. Also each clutch did produce striped babies with stripes that go much further down and break up into dotted lines down toward the tail, like you typically see on normal stripes. Those ones to me are clearly normal stripes, and I think these odd-looking ones are likely the tessera stripes. Any thoughts?


Their sire: tessera stripe het anery cinder hypo

 

[ecreipeoj]

They look like genetic Striped + Tessera to me.

 

[wendhend]

Tessera Stripes!

Yes, I found out that they are indeed tessera stripes. I contacted Don Soderberg, who I knew had extensive experience with tessera morph combos, and he said he was sure that's what they are. Apparently the vanished stripe look is much less common with them, but it's what my tessera male has a tendency to throw. Anyway, here is a link to one of Don's Snake of the Day shares from last year regarding this striped particular tessera stripe look:

https://www.cornsnake.net/index.php...&catid=69:snake-of-the-day&Itemid=252&lang=en

Don said I should try to work toward producing non-striped striped tesseras, since I already seem to have a good start, so that's what I will probably will work toward in the future, as well as combining that look with different morphs. So, I am planning to keep all of these weird ones, and I look forward to seeing how they turn out looking as adults!

 

[cturley]

Sorry to come rather late to the discussion, but . . .

I'm 99.9% certain they're tessera stripes. Rich Hume and I did a loan with my "striped" tessera female two years ago that ended up proving she was actually a striped/motley tessera. Bred to Rich's striped pied blood, she produced motleys, stripey tesseras that looked like her, and stripes of two sorts: normal-looking stripes and also the vanishing-stripe sort, which all had little or no lateral striping (and often very little dorsal striping, either) and very faded head patterns vis-a-vis normal stripes.

Since then I have worked with two other clutches involving tessera and stripe, and produced the same two "types" of stripes, in proportions consistent with Mendelian inheritance. Joe Pierce (before he vanished again) was also producing the same things in his tessera stripe clutches, and posted about them on the Source.

The confusion stems, I think, from the fact that what were originally called "striped" tesseras were in fact motley tesseras, or motley/stripe tesseras. True striped tesseras from those clutches were (I'm guessing) sold off as mere stripes.

Your results make me that much more sure. A few more weeks should either prove it or make me look like an ass, since this year I bred one of the suspected striped tessera males from the clutch with Rich to a normally-patterned female, in the hope of seeing some tesseras pop out. Fingers crossed.

Here are some pics comparing the "normal" stripe pheno with the suspected tessera stripes from two different clutches.

From Motley/Stripe Tessera x Striped Pied Bloodred:
normal stripe (sorry it's not a very clear photo, but you can see the bolder head pattern and that the lateral and dorsal striping that extend all the way to the vent)
suspected tessera stripe (the male I am testing this year)

From Motley/Stripe Tessera x Miami het Stripe
normal stripe
suspected tessera stripe

 

[ghosthousecorns]

Well these pics got me thinking about the one tessera clutch I produced in 2013 and I now believe that I might be one of the people that has sold one of those as a vanishing stripe. D'oh, I kept an anery "striped tessera" male of the clutch which I now think is really a motley tessera. But there was also another nice striped snake in the clutch. Because the sire of the clutch was a ghost motley het stripe that had produced vanishing stripes, I assumed that's what he was and sold him as one.
Here is the baby in question. The dame was a tessera het stripe.

 

[wendhend]

Thanks for the replies! My clearly normal stripes versus the tessera stripes within the same clutch appear similar to yours, Catherine. Below is a photo of one of tessera stripes with a normal striped sibling. Regarding the motley tessera thing, I also now believe that the sire to my tessera stripes (in photo on previous post on this thread) is actually a motley stripe tessera. He was sold to me as a striped tessera, but he has produced a disproportionate amount of normal motley non-tessera offspring in clutches where I did not expect to get motleys, as well as in one where I expected a 50/50 ratio of striped and motley offspring and got way more motley babies. I too am pretty convinced that many of the ones with prominent stripe are actually tessera motleys. My second photo here illustrates the difference you can see in siblings from the same clutch. The more orange one is pretty clearly a striped tessera, and I believe the darker two to be motley tesseras with varying degrees of stripeyness and side pattern.


Normal & tessera Striped siblings from same clutch


Striped tessera (the more orange one) and siblings I believe to be tessera motleys

 

[ecreipeoj]

Here is a related thread. http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=132131&highlight=Striped+Tessera

Originally, everybody was mistakenly calling a Motley Tessera "Striped" Tessera. They didn't know their "Striped" Tesseras were actually M/S Tesseras, like stated above.

When they bred a M/S Tessera x Striped, they repeated the mistake, over and over. Each time, they produced the same phenotype as the parent Tessera, so they just assumed they were right. They didn't notice regular Stripes, mixed with Two Line and Reverse Stripes, due to the existence of Vanishing Striped Corns, an easy mistake to make.

 

[Jessicat]

Damn Joe. Morph Police. :cheers:

 

[Nanci]

Interesting. I'm trying really hard to keep Tessera and Motley/Stripe separate, although I realize it could very well be lurking.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

I'm diving in with both feet when it comes to mixing them I guess, as the snake I acquired the tessera gene from was het stripe and my holdback male is apparently a tessera motley het stripe. This year I put him with 2 hypo het anery motley cinder females- both have been proved not to be het stripe.
If this theory is correct I would get a few more of the "striped tessera" and they will actually be either motley tessera or motley het stripe tessera.
I'm kinda wondering a bit if tessera hasn't been around longer than we knew but hidden by the stripe gene and been a contributing factor to the nicer lines of vanishing stripe.
The one thing I am noticing in these "tessera vanishing stripes" posted on this thread, is they all have a dorsal line of color going down their back and a distinctive head pattern...

 

[wendhend]

I agree that they have a distinctive head pattern. The line of color down the back is more evident in some than others, though. This is a photo taken today of the four tessera stripes I produced from my fire het stripe female bred to my tessera "stripe" male, who I now believe to be a motley stripe tessera. The two that look more gray / tan at the bottom are the ones that I posted a photo of on the first post of this thread, and the other two that look more orange were always more orange with some striping and that line of color you could see all the way down. I'm guessing that they will all color up more with maturity.


Tessera stripe sibling variety

 

[wendhend]

I'm diving in with both feet when it comes to mixing them I guess, as the snake I acquired the tessera gene from was het stripe and my holdback male is apparently a tessera motley het stripe. This year I put him with 2 hypo het anery motley cinder females- both have been proved not to be het stripe.
If this theory is correct I would get a few more of the "striped tessera" and they will actually be either motley tessera or motley het stripe tessera.
I'm kinda wondering a bit if tessera hasn't been around longer than we knew but hidden by the stripe gene and been a contributing factor to the nicer lines of vanishing stripe.
The one thing I am noticing in these "tessera vanishing stripes" posted on this thread, is they all have a dorsal line of color going down their back and a distinctive head pattern...

Jen, I would love to see your results of these clutches that should only produce normal and motley tessera phenotypes! From what I have seen with my own tessera projects, my presumed tessera motleys seem to show quite a bit of variation. One of my projects was a granite motley / stripe female bred to my "striped" tessera male (which I now believe to be a motley / stripe tessera). The striped tesseras were very obvious to me after having already hatched a few, and the ones I believe to be motley tesseras show a lot of variety, from some with dashed "highway" stripes and side patterns to others with no side pattern and complete stipes other than a break in the stripe at the neck and a little bulging in the stripe close to the vent. Here are some photos from that clutch:


Entire clutch from granite motley / stripe female bred to tessera "stripe" male, which I now believe to be a motley / stripe tessera. Among the non tessera offspring, there is only one normal stripe and six normal motleys.


The clearly tessera striped babies from this clutch.


What I'm calling "highway" striped presumed tessera motleys from this same clutch, which have some side tessellation pattern.


Fully striped presumed tessera motleys from this same clutch with less side pattern.

 

[ecreipeoj]

Damn Joe. Morph Police. :cheers:

I think all of us just want the truth.

True Corn Snake Genetics is reproducible. We have came a long way since I came into this hobby. All we had then, was Amel, Anery, Hypo, Striped, Motley, "Bloodred" and the new possible gene Sunkissed. We didn't know Motley and Striped were alleles with Motley dominant. We didn't know Bloodreds were Masque RC, RF, Diffused Corns.

Now we know the truth about 4 times as many genes and have identified them. There is more truth to be found about Corn Snake Genetics.

Lets do it!:cheers:

 

[ghosthousecorns]

Wendy the clutch is on day 61, been denting for about a week and a half and driving me crazy. The pairing was, male anery tessera (presumed motley/stripe) het hypo, paired with a female hypo het motley anery cinder. I just wanted a ghost tessera! But it should be an interesting clutch. The mom just laid her second one, too. I also paired the same male with another female with the same genetics as the first female (half sister) so if all goes well I should have a few more examples...