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Please Help: Snake with Possible Broken Vertebrae
- Thread starter Lyreiania
- Start date
Lyreiania
New member
Hi all...
An update on my beautiful boy. He ate 11/15, 3 small mice. And yesterday he was doing sort of well, neurologically.
Today, however, I came home and he was wrapped in one of his Gordian knots (he can only move part way, so moves, gets stuck, picks a different direction, same thing happens and he winds up in multiple tight helixes that I help him out of). And, his neurologic function seems WELL diminished from yesterday. Immediately past the fracture he seems to have a blind area thats not mobile at all, not new...but towards the tail he responds somewhat better which makes NO sense in any way shape or form. That is unchanged, but it now takes stronger stimuli to get a response. I have been working with him way past the site to make sure his muscles dont atrophy and he doesnt get clots. Ive not moved the fracture site at all in this.
I consulted with another reptile vet (by phone) who said its possible the snake has something degenerative, maybe caused by bacteria who chew up the spine (sort of the same way strep bacteria can affect the heart valves and kidneys in humans). She wants to X Ray the whole snake to see if she can detect evidence of this, and said creative bracing may be in order depending on what X Rays show. To X Ray the whole snake...thats over 6 feet of snake!
Im worried his rapid change from yesterday means a fast descent downhill for my poor boy. I dont know if I should take him in to see this other vet tomorrow or later this coming week because I know there is little to nothing that can be done. Hes an older snake, so hes not a great surgical candidate, for sure.
I also dont want an animal suffering. The question is, how does anyone know when a snake suffers? He SEEMS bright and alert still. Drinks water when I offer (he has a low dish near him, but seems to like the personal touch more)I just dont know what to do. I feel like a horrid snake parent because my pet was injured and Ive not a clue how it happened. Ockhams razor (simplest explanation is likliest) suggests he was injured when I had him in his travel bag, and my attention elsewhere.
Im devastated if he was harmed due to my negligence even though I believed him to be safe where he was. And I certainly took him to seek medical care immediately, so one can say it wasnt negligence but I dont know. Maybe Im just beating myself up here for no good reason.
Advice? Comments? Thank you all much,
Sincerely,
Susan
An update on my beautiful boy. He ate 11/15, 3 small mice. And yesterday he was doing sort of well, neurologically.
Today, however, I came home and he was wrapped in one of his Gordian knots (he can only move part way, so moves, gets stuck, picks a different direction, same thing happens and he winds up in multiple tight helixes that I help him out of). And, his neurologic function seems WELL diminished from yesterday. Immediately past the fracture he seems to have a blind area thats not mobile at all, not new...but towards the tail he responds somewhat better which makes NO sense in any way shape or form. That is unchanged, but it now takes stronger stimuli to get a response. I have been working with him way past the site to make sure his muscles dont atrophy and he doesnt get clots. Ive not moved the fracture site at all in this.
I consulted with another reptile vet (by phone) who said its possible the snake has something degenerative, maybe caused by bacteria who chew up the spine (sort of the same way strep bacteria can affect the heart valves and kidneys in humans). She wants to X Ray the whole snake to see if she can detect evidence of this, and said creative bracing may be in order depending on what X Rays show. To X Ray the whole snake...thats over 6 feet of snake!
Im worried his rapid change from yesterday means a fast descent downhill for my poor boy. I dont know if I should take him in to see this other vet tomorrow or later this coming week because I know there is little to nothing that can be done. Hes an older snake, so hes not a great surgical candidate, for sure.
I also dont want an animal suffering. The question is, how does anyone know when a snake suffers? He SEEMS bright and alert still. Drinks water when I offer (he has a low dish near him, but seems to like the personal touch more)I just dont know what to do. I feel like a horrid snake parent because my pet was injured and Ive not a clue how it happened. Ockhams razor (simplest explanation is likliest) suggests he was injured when I had him in his travel bag, and my attention elsewhere.
Im devastated if he was harmed due to my negligence even though I believed him to be safe where he was. And I certainly took him to seek medical care immediately, so one can say it wasnt negligence but I dont know. Maybe Im just beating myself up here for no good reason.
Advice? Comments? Thank you all much,
Sincerely,
Susan
Lyreiania
New member
Hi Nanci...
No, he cant get around effectively by himself. He drags himself some, but he manages to tie himself in knots more often.
When I work with him, he can move somewhat better. On his own, though, he forms a knot. And that cant be good for his vertebrae either.
Sincerely,
Susan
No, he cant get around effectively by himself. He drags himself some, but he manages to tie himself in knots more often.
When I work with him, he can move somewhat better. On his own, though, he forms a knot. And that cant be good for his vertebrae either.
Sincerely,
Susan
Rich in KY
Fortunate Fool
Having an injured pet is never easy.
You seem to doing the best that you can under the circumstances.
I hope this new vet is able to do something creative to help.
You seem to doing the best that you can under the circumstances.
I hope this new vet is able to do something creative to help.
Lyreiania
New member
Hello to all,
Thank you all so much for your past kindnesses. Here is an update on my boy, and ANY advice would be MOST welcome.
He had a re XRAY of his broken spine Dec 18th, (original injury Oct 10th) and the X RAY showed a NON healing fracture. Apparently, for a good healthy callous to form, the bone ends must be touching...in his case, there seems to be a displaced bone floating, and so since no contact, no healing.
He has weakness past that fracture site, its VERY hard for him to get around though with difficulty, he can. He seems to be lost in space at times...its hard to explain but his movements are so bizzare, and many times now since the vet appointment I find him belly up (which causes momentary panic I tell you!!). I help him gently to right himself. He seems somewhat frustrated during those times but his disposition remains friendly.
He still eats regularly, and passess stool seemingly without a problem. He can drink as well, but he needs low bowls to reach his water.
I dont think he can be left like this...what do you all say? If he has a floating displaced bone, it can move and further injure his already injured spinal cord. Im thinking of suggesting the possibility of a bone graft? If there needs to be contact to get it to heal, stick a segment of bone in the gap...make sense to anyone else?
Its so heartbreaking for me to see my beloved snake struggling. I dont believe he is SUFFERING though. I wish to gods I knew how the break occured. I cant post the new X Ray as its not in a JPEG format or any other familar one.
Any ideas? Advice? Suggestions? Anyone have anything similar?
Sincerely,
Susan
Thank you all so much for your past kindnesses. Here is an update on my boy, and ANY advice would be MOST welcome.
He had a re XRAY of his broken spine Dec 18th, (original injury Oct 10th) and the X RAY showed a NON healing fracture. Apparently, for a good healthy callous to form, the bone ends must be touching...in his case, there seems to be a displaced bone floating, and so since no contact, no healing.
He has weakness past that fracture site, its VERY hard for him to get around though with difficulty, he can. He seems to be lost in space at times...its hard to explain but his movements are so bizzare, and many times now since the vet appointment I find him belly up (which causes momentary panic I tell you!!). I help him gently to right himself. He seems somewhat frustrated during those times but his disposition remains friendly.
He still eats regularly, and passess stool seemingly without a problem. He can drink as well, but he needs low bowls to reach his water.
I dont think he can be left like this...what do you all say? If he has a floating displaced bone, it can move and further injure his already injured spinal cord. Im thinking of suggesting the possibility of a bone graft? If there needs to be contact to get it to heal, stick a segment of bone in the gap...make sense to anyone else?
Its so heartbreaking for me to see my beloved snake struggling. I dont believe he is SUFFERING though. I wish to gods I knew how the break occured. I cant post the new X Ray as its not in a JPEG format or any other familar one.
Any ideas? Advice? Suggestions? Anyone have anything similar?
Sincerely,
Susan
Nanci
Alien Lover
Do they bone graft snakes? I guess my answer hasn't changed. If YOU get enjoyment out of him, the way he is, and if HE is eating, drinking, pooping- give it more time and hope for the best. He might, probably will, end up being a special needs snake for the rest of his life. However, he might recover. Stranger things have happened. I am sure, though, if you were just tired of the struggle, no one would fault you in putting him to sleep, either. Take comfort in the fact that he doesn't remember what it was like before. He just knows what it is, now. He hasn't given up. He isn't worried about tomorrow. He's just living his life, as it is. And you are helping him.
vetusvates
Gamaliel's Principle
Susan, I agree 100% with Nanci. Breath deeply and embrace the fact that you just may have a special needs snake. Or if his health, and quality of life, seem to be declining consider a comfortable pleasant end. I know sentiment and love for your snake does not make it easy, but at some point the cost/benefit ratio for your pleasure/satisfaction will/may kick in.
I would think a bone graft would involve a significant period of a splint and 100% immobilization. And then there is the cost, and finding a vet willing to do it.
I obviously don't have a solid answer, but I encouraged you before,...and I just can't seem to abandon you now, as I have been following your ups and downs with your snake.
Good luck with some tough decisions. And keep us posted.
I would think a bone graft would involve a significant period of a splint and 100% immobilization. And then there is the cost, and finding a vet willing to do it.
I obviously don't have a solid answer, but I encouraged you before,...and I just can't seem to abandon you now, as I have been following your ups and downs with your snake.
Good luck with some tough decisions. And keep us posted.
Lyreiania
New member
Hello Nanci and Vestuvates...
LOL. I am breathing deeply and trying to be calm and take a zen approach. However whats preventing me is the thought/concept and idea of a floating piece of bone in my poor snakes back. I envision it bobbing up and down and to and fro and side to side, within his body, and wonder what it will do, and when will it completely sever his spinal colum? Can it float away and rupture an organ?
Euthanizing isnt in the picture at all. I am very good at knowing when the time comes to put suffering animals out of their misery, and my snake is NOT suffering. He eats, and a suffering snake wont do that. He is friendly; were he in pain hed try to bite me when I pet him, and when Ive righted him when he was upside down and in knots. He just is a bit sensitive around the direct area of the fracture.
Im having more a problem with the mental image of the break and what it signifies. That I know I have to discuss with my vet to truly know if my fears are groundless. I also DO hate and get depressed looking at his seeming struggles to move, but thats no valid or legitamate reason to kill him.
I must say the coldly detached clinical part of me, the part that says "what a cool X RAY" when she looks at it...that part of me is fascinated by this snakes seeming capacity to LEARN. He has figured out if he braces the part of himself that works, movement is alot easier. So he uses the side of the glass, a cage decoration, one of the water dishes. It IS interesting to see this animal learn, and it shows that even animals we dont associate learning and intellect with, can learn and figure out their environment.
Thanks for both of your kind words, Im grateful to you both.
Sincerely,
Susan
LOL. I am breathing deeply and trying to be calm and take a zen approach. However whats preventing me is the thought/concept and idea of a floating piece of bone in my poor snakes back. I envision it bobbing up and down and to and fro and side to side, within his body, and wonder what it will do, and when will it completely sever his spinal colum? Can it float away and rupture an organ?
Euthanizing isnt in the picture at all. I am very good at knowing when the time comes to put suffering animals out of their misery, and my snake is NOT suffering. He eats, and a suffering snake wont do that. He is friendly; were he in pain hed try to bite me when I pet him, and when Ive righted him when he was upside down and in knots. He just is a bit sensitive around the direct area of the fracture.
Im having more a problem with the mental image of the break and what it signifies. That I know I have to discuss with my vet to truly know if my fears are groundless. I also DO hate and get depressed looking at his seeming struggles to move, but thats no valid or legitamate reason to kill him.
I must say the coldly detached clinical part of me, the part that says "what a cool X RAY" when she looks at it...that part of me is fascinated by this snakes seeming capacity to LEARN. He has figured out if he braces the part of himself that works, movement is alot easier. So he uses the side of the glass, a cage decoration, one of the water dishes. It IS interesting to see this animal learn, and it shows that even animals we dont associate learning and intellect with, can learn and figure out their environment.
Thanks for both of your kind words, Im grateful to you both.
Sincerely,
Susan
iLuvScooter
New member
Hi Susan,
I'm new to the site, and new to having a snake (Scooter!), but I read your thread with interest and the hope that everything would work out ok. I have to agree with the others that if your snake doesn't seem to be in pain and is managing to get around, then it would be a shame to end his life.
Also, this might sound ignorant, but are snakes' brains the same as mammals, ie, with a left and right hemisphere? If there's a "malfunction" on one side, the other side will eventually take over the behavior in many/most cases, right? And it sounds like your baby is adjusting to the situation. You'll just have to keep helping him when he gets knotted up, I guess.
Sending gentle hugs and energy to both of you.
I'm new to the site, and new to having a snake (Scooter!), but I read your thread with interest and the hope that everything would work out ok. I have to agree with the others that if your snake doesn't seem to be in pain and is managing to get around, then it would be a shame to end his life.
Also, this might sound ignorant, but are snakes' brains the same as mammals, ie, with a left and right hemisphere? If there's a "malfunction" on one side, the other side will eventually take over the behavior in many/most cases, right? And it sounds like your baby is adjusting to the situation. You'll just have to keep helping him when he gets knotted up, I guess.
Sending gentle hugs and energy to both of you.
ghosthousecorns
Well-known member
I have had to put down a snake with neurological damage after trying to nurse him back to health for months and it was very hard to do, but it was a quality of life decision in the end. I don't want to seem harsh here. but to me it does seem like it might be kinder to euthanize him especially if he seems to be getting worse instead of better... I know he is eating and pooping, but I really do not think snakes express pain in a way that is easily recognizable like other animals. The snake dragging itself around would be a big signal to me that the time had come to let go.. I'd also worry about the stress it is causing every time he ties himself in the knots or flips over and can't get himself upright. I'm very sorry.
Lyreiania
New member
Hi Scooter and Jen...
Thanks for your words as well. Scooter, congratulations on your new snake!!! I wish you many years of happiness with him <smiles>. You are correct; in mammals at least, if one hemisphere of the brain has damage, the other side (with physical therapy help) CAN in some cases assume the duties of the other side. That is felt to play a role in the recovery of stroke victims.
However, my snakes damage doesn't lie within his brain. His brain, such as it is, functions well. The injury is in his spinal cord. There is nothing for the brain to "take over" here.
Jen, thank you for your perspective as well. I agree, if its a quality of life issue I would have him euthanized. I think its selfish and immoral to keep a pet alive when that pets existence is one of misery and despair. However at this point its not. I share your concern about his stress when he flips over or ties himself in a knot, at times he gives the impression of frustration... but that doesn't seem to be doing HARM. If one day it did, I would act.
A snake that eats, says my veterinarian, isn't suffering. If he were in pain, he really would be vicious and hostile when I had to un-knot him...and he is neither.
The snake's movement disorder isn't a reason for me to euthanize, all other things being normal as they are.
Thanks again for your perspective, I really do appreciate it and I also respect you for saying something that you had a feeling would not be favorably received.
Sincerely,
Susan
Thanks for your words as well. Scooter, congratulations on your new snake!!! I wish you many years of happiness with him <smiles>. You are correct; in mammals at least, if one hemisphere of the brain has damage, the other side (with physical therapy help) CAN in some cases assume the duties of the other side. That is felt to play a role in the recovery of stroke victims.
However, my snakes damage doesn't lie within his brain. His brain, such as it is, functions well. The injury is in his spinal cord. There is nothing for the brain to "take over" here.
Jen, thank you for your perspective as well. I agree, if its a quality of life issue I would have him euthanized. I think its selfish and immoral to keep a pet alive when that pets existence is one of misery and despair. However at this point its not. I share your concern about his stress when he flips over or ties himself in a knot, at times he gives the impression of frustration... but that doesn't seem to be doing HARM. If one day it did, I would act.
A snake that eats, says my veterinarian, isn't suffering. If he were in pain, he really would be vicious and hostile when I had to un-knot him...and he is neither.
The snake's movement disorder isn't a reason for me to euthanize, all other things being normal as they are.
Thanks again for your perspective, I really do appreciate it and I also respect you for saying something that you had a feeling would not be favorably received.
Sincerely,
Susan
ghosthousecorns
Well-known member
I am usually not too shy about speaking up, rather I may need to work on keeping big trap shut. I really didn't want to seem mean. Thanks for understanding my perspective, I was a bit afraid my post would offend you. . I do hope the snake will recover or at least improve.
RustyTavern
New member
Did the Snake survive? I have the same problem
what is the resolution?
what is the resolution?
Dragonling
Doesn't do "casual"
:face_palm_02: This thread is a DECADE old. Go to the vet.