PLEASE read, I know its a lot to read, but I really need help! Thanks...

[LindsayMarie]

*I know this is long, but if you could PLEASE read and respond, I would be so thankful, thank you*

Ok so I have been researching corns since 2002 when Rich Z put a pic up of a butter stripe ( I was in LOVE, but 2 grand was WAY out of my price range....lol ) But can you believe out of 21 adults and tons of babies I still dont have one (I might need to e-mail Rich, but I know how busy he is)!

Anyways, in 2006 I bought my first 2 corns from Beth (starsevol) Not much later I seen Vin posting his 'mystery project' and that caught my eye. I dont know why, but I wanted a pair. So I bought 2 F2's, one of which is a semi-odd Hypo Lav. Then after buying around 7 snakes from Rich H and Gideon (non related to this project) & a few from Rich Z (also non related), the parents of Vins 'mystery project' went up for sale and eventually I caved in hopes of trying to help Vin and Rich figure out what was causing the uniqueness, which is hard to see unless in person. Also, come on we all know its fun to watch a variety of babies come out and hope to hit a jackpot...lol For the info I bought some more after that, totaling 21.

So to the point now that you have a little background. This year I felt the 'mystery group' (Hypo trio w/ tons of hets and the two F2's) were the only ones big enough to breed, even though the others would have made me tons more $$$. This is my first year breeding and I think I have come to the conclusion that I should not have started with the "mystery group' to begin. I mean I had ok luck, I think. But then I didnt. I had almost all fertile eggs, decent size clutches, no egg bound females and I even was able to somehow get this line to double clutch (until each of the 2 hypos double clutched, it was believed this line did not). Then I had things that werent so good. I was I guess over anxious with the first clutch that I tried feeding RIGHT after they shed. Not to mention even tried sexing and all that. Well that was my most anticipated clutch because it was from my 'weird' Hypo Lav F2. Out of 16, only 9 are alive. The rest I tried EVERYTHING on and they didnt want to eat. I even called Kathy Love, asked advice, she was so nice and helped so much yet the 7 still refused. So the second clutch of the year, different mom and dad hatches, out of 19 I think I have 13 eating. Its not that 6 refused, its that one (my ONLY HYPO LAV BLOOD) was severly kinked and needed humanely put down, 1 escaped when I switched to 6 qt sterilites and another died by constantly striking the cage! Then out of clutch 3 of the year from my amber (first time breeder) out of 11 eggs, 1 went bad (I believe she had 11 eggs!- I dont have their book with me) 10 hatched. Out of those 10 only 6-7 are eating. Then there are the two double clutches 4 (C1's double C) and 5 (C2's double C). They hatched more recently (but most of these guys are months old now! I am getting about the same results with feeding, is this normal? Why would an animal starve with so many options and I learned from the first clutch to space everything out. Still doesnt work, these guys eat right from the start, or dont. Period. Good eaters or NON eaters, although I do have a couple picky ones who rather have tmf then bc, blah blah.

The workload is hard and time consuming especially having a child with special needs (autism) and now having 5 clutches. But I made the decision to hold onto them until they were past the frail stage, I didnt send the 'low' end stuff off to pet stores or wholesale them, mainly because of all the possible hets!!!. Most I can tell what they are, but there are a few that I have no idea? I know all the genes in the project (minus the "mystery issue"), so I hope that helps sell.

You know the sad part is, I am usually active on this forum and have subscribed to the classifieds and have yet to put up a ad nor can I bring myself to read threads or ads. I am so overwhelmed and so afraid they wont sell (as most seem to be out of money) and I see TONS and TONS of new breeders and ads, that I am like (I cant think of the word)....I just want to sometimes. Now when I wasnt breeding and was just acquiring my corns, there werent nearly as many ads or people! Its like the market is flooded. This isnt the first time this has happened to me w/ reptiles and breeding. Maybe thats why I am so nervous and overwhelmed.

I realize this is a long thread and most probably wont even read the whole thing, but any feedback would be great. I am struggling with the idea of selling everything (including adults) then at the same time I have been wanting this for YEARS! I know I havent asked too many direct questions, but answers to those I did ask, comments, suggestions, experiences, anything might help. I am kind of stuck in this rut.

I dont know what else to say.... Being my first year, I didnt even know what supplies to order or where from? I still have no shipping supplies. I know of superior enterprise and uline from a thread. But what I need and sizes, I have no clue right now.... PLEASE HELP! Thank you SO much for your time in reading this thread. I really hope to hear from you and please feel free to pm me if you would rather do that. Whats said to me, stays with me Thank you. LindsayMarie

PS. Have I ruined my chances of selling by waiting till they are very established versus 3-5 or 5-7 feedings?

 

[Tula_Montage]

I understand your concern about working with such a special project. But why not offer up the non feeders to GOOD HOMES ONLY for a small fee? Breeding snakes is not about the money, your always going to be out of pocket unless you do it on an industrial scale like Rich Z.

I am sure people would jump at the chance to have the oppertunity to work with an interesting bunch of genes and you would feel less overwealmed.

Try not to think of them as little $$ signs sitting in boxes.

 

[starsevol]

Hi Lindsey,
Yup, that was a long thread!
I know this was your first year, and you truly jumped in with both feet! It sounds like your season started out just fine, better than mine did anyhow! I too have found that usually they either eat or they don't. But that is not always the case. I have had a few that ate like fiends, then stopped for no reason at all. I believe your Sassy was one of those, and I bought a lavender female from Dean that ate great for him, but wouldn't eat for me no matter what I did.
I am sorry about all your other troubles. Our friend Murphy tends to let us have some victories, then kick us in the shins when we let our guard down. Don't let all the new breeders scare you. There are people jumping into this wonderful hobby everyday, and you know how addictive these animals are! Plus with the huge range of morphs, no breeder can have everything the public wants, so hopefully you can fill a niche.
As far as supplies, I ordered drilled deli cups, plus lids. Heat packs, cold packs. And insulated boxes that are 3/4" thick are better than the 1/2" thick ones.
I really hope I helped a bit. Please feel free to pm me if you feel like talking.
Beth

 

[susang]

I found with some of mine and even established ones, the trauma of moving them to a feeding tub is just too much. The ones that weren't eating got put on paper towel and fed in thier tub, it made about a 90% differance, in the difficult eaters.

 

[LindsayMarie]

Tula,
I would practically give the non feeders away (although most have been put down), but there really isnt a market for dying snakes as pets. I do however have 2 very fiesty kinked ones who ate right off the bat and have no problem shedding/pooing etc. I dont have a wholesaler and how people are getting them, I dont know? So I had and have to make judgement calls and many are not easy.

As far as seeing them as $$ is far from the truth (I started with 6" mainstays from WalMarts), then went and spent tons more on sterilites instead (shoebox size) and a plastic rack. Now I am debating on going with the larger rectangle gladware, although smaller then the shoe box in height, the floor space is about the same and I wouldnt need 50 plus dollars worth of clips! Also thinking of switching to a metal rack. Then there was the BC food order for 400+ (and I need to make another order, but through tmf I think), then the electric bill, etc, so its not about making tons of money to me. Its about fully establishing each snake, so that its new home has little to no problems. I want them to have GOOD homes and still be able to help out with some of the cost spent (which I am sure most hope that)!!

 

[LindsayMarie]

I found with some of mine and even established ones, the trauma of moving them to a feeding tub is just too much. The ones that weren't eating got put on paper towel and fed in thier tub, it made about a 90% differance, in the difficult eaters.

I dont use feeding tubs as all my snakes are on towels. I feed right in their cage, unless I buy live and then I use a deli. But I dont think I will be trying live much any more. Its hard to watch even a baby pinky suffer, while a few handfuls of non feeders just keep refusing! 1-2 day old mice pinks are hard to come by up here for some reason and when I did find them I would have to drive 40-50 minutes to pick 1 or 2 up. Not really worth it!

 

[LindsayMarie]

Please feel free to pm me if you feel like talking.
Beth

Thank you Beth, I may just do that!

 

[LindsayMarie]

I know my thread is long and I wish I could somehow shorten it, so people actually read it. I know I sometimes click on a thread and I am like whoa, no way, too long. But PLEASE, there has been 80+ views and 3 replies (not counting mine). Anything you say might help. I am NOT looking for pity, thats not what I wrote this post for! I wrote it, one to vent! Also, to receive support from a community I have been a part of for 6 years (although inactive for a little while). Your own experiences, suggestions, advice, any of that would be GREATLY appreciated! Thank you, Lindsay

 

[Emanon]

I completely feel your anxiety... my season has been quite the bummer as well... sales slow, clutches molding or prized possibilities slugging out.
My opinion... (not even worth 2cents in a penny store) hold on and see it through another year... relax and enjoy the hobby. You are making or will be making some cool stuff... relax and take life as it comes.

 

[ghosthousecorns]

I think few breeders have hatchlings fly off the shelves. I am not one of those who do 3 pinkies and out the door. If I have to keep a baby snake for months, I do. That's why I stay small. And it's definitely not about the money for me, if I make some that's nice but more usually I break even. You won't get rich doing this hobby, you have to love doing it.
TBH if I had done 5 clutches my very first year breeding, I would have felt overwhelmed and frustrated because it was a learning curve on how to get them established, shoot I have 5 clutches this year (6th year of breeding) and still feel like I have baby snakes coming out of my ears.
Try all the tricks, tease feeding, scenting, feeding in the tubs, and overnight, and don't overload yourself by trying to do them all at once. I split my snakes into feeding groups by days of the week. (Tonight is 07's)
If you end up having a hard time selling them this year you know to cut back production next year, but since you have project snakes you could always try writing an ad for a wholesale lot of mystery project snakes. I sold a lot of surplus from my Cinder project that way.

 

[carol]

Just enjoy what you are learning along the way. There is no amount of replys that will teach you what going through the motions will. In my experience there are good years, bad years, and horrible years. If you make anything above your expenses, it's a good year. You have to be in it for the love of keeping snakes and learning how to do it better. Even then we all experience burn out. Throw in the burden of trying to turn a profit and it's very difficult to bear through a rough year. So, my advice is to let it go and remember why you bought your first snake. Speaking from someone who had had some pretty horrible seasons. Thankfully this year is my second "good" year in a row. But still the economy isn't that great and things are harder to sell this year.

 

[CaptBogart]

I too have to agree with what's been posted so far. This year I focused on only a couple projects, trying to get the morphs I want in the collection that I only had hets for, creating hets for others that I want, and tested some possible hets. I didn't go into this season as a business, so there is no stress on what to do with the hatchlings because most are keepers, some were traded for other morphs, the non feeder normals were culled, and I gave the local pet stores really good deals on the common morphs and normals, (I even traded some for feeders).
With today's economy, I consider this a barter year, and took the opportunity to make some great deals, and since you're working on the "Mystery Line", I'm sure there are a few breeders who wouldn't mind some project snakes for that Butter Stripe...
As an Economics Major, I would recommend culling the kinked and the non feeders that look as if they're not going to make it. I know it's hard, but that is also part of breeding. You have to focus resources on viable results or risk wasting valuable time, effort, money, and emotional stress.

 

[bitsy]

Have to echo what's been said really:

1) There's no point breeding for money with 21 Corns. Essentially, it's just a hobby with the added bonus that you might recoup your costs in a good breeding year.

2) There will be good and bad years - it's a shame that you had to start on a bad one. My bad years have been when the shop I sell to, has realised (after hatching) that they can't take any of mine at all.

3) If you can't sell and money is an immediate problem for you, give the hatchlings away - even the healthy ones. They're costing you money to feed, so the longer you hang on, the more they cost you. Even taking them to an animal rescue should be an option in dire circumstances.

4) I agree that kinked ones and non-feeders should be euthanased, as long as you've tried all the tricks with the non-feeders and have failed.

5) I usually sell after three feeds - I consider them "established" feeders if they take three defrost pinks in a row, with none of the tricks.

6) It might be worth reviewing your breeding projects and scaling back for next year by selling some of the adults. In darker moments, I've found caring for 16 adult snakes to be overwhelming, never mind all of the nonsense that goes along with breeding.

7) It feels like the credit crunch/recession (whatever it is) will be with us for some time. Buying pets will probably be down people's financial priority list for a while yet. It mgiht even be worth taking a break from breeding next year to allow the market time to recover (and to give yourself a rest).

Wish there were some easy answers or some more palatable advice that I could offer. Sorry that things are going so astray for you.

 

[El Jefe]

Just enjoy what you are learning along the way. There is no amount of replys that will teach you what going through the motions will. In my experience there are good years, bad years, and horrible years. If you make anything above your expenses, it's a good year. You have to be in it for the love of keeping snakes and learning how to do it better. Even then we all experience burn out. Throw in the burden of trying to turn a profit and it's very difficult to bear through a rough year. So, my advice is to let it go and remember why you bought your first snake.

I'm rather busy and lazy (nice combo eh) so I'll echo what is written above!!!

 

[Susan]

I have to agree with everything that has already been said. You have to be in this for the sheer pleasure of having the snakes and seeing what pops out of each egg. Murphy is a cruel and nasty (insert expletive here) and will kick you where it hurts every chance he gets. However, Lady Luck tries her best to counter Murphy's acts. It's a constant battle between the two with us stuck in the middle. You simply have to accept the bad and focus on the good.

Unfortunately for all of us, the economy is such where we are all going to have to either hang onto most of what we've hatched out in hopes of eventually finding a buyer, sell as much as we can at a greatly reduced rate or euthanize more than we would normally do in order to be able to keep the rest. I just had to order more mice and the price has risen since the last time I ordered. My own colonies are currently not producing (summer is always the worst) and the cost to keep my colonies has risen as well. I'm seriously considering reducing my collection, even more than Murphy has already reduced it, just so that I can afford to keep the remainder and all the tagged keepers. I will just hate to have to sell proven breeders for the price of hatchlings, and hatchlings below wholesale. I'm not at that point yet, but getting close.

You've got a slightly better chance at selling your established mystery hatchlings than I have for most of what I've produced this year. I'm still able to sell at 50% off for non-established hatchlings because all of my clutches have hatched later than many other breeders. But in a few more weeks, most will be established and I'll have to make a decision as to what to do with the majority of them as I simply cannot keep and feed 200 hatchlings and all the adults and subadults for long.

I would recommend that you go ahead and advertise the hatchlings you have, possibly putting them up in groups for those that love project snakes. You've already paid for your ads by being a Contributing member so you might as well get your money's worth. If you don't get any buyers, you've at least tried.

And if you don't want to have the added expense of buying shipping supplies, I would suggest that you contact your local vets and ask is they would save the smaller boxes with the styrofoam liners and the cold packs that I know they all get and usually just throw away. Merial and Pfizer have some terrific "cooler boxes" of just the perfect size for a small group of hatchlings, and you can get even larger boxes for those really large sales.

 

[kathylove]

Good subject - so this will be even longer than your post, lol!

There has been some great advice here already! But maybe I can add some perspective as somebody who has been breeding reptiles a long time, and also as somebody who does need to be able to pay part of the mortgage with my business (luckily, hubby's photo and tours help to pay the rest!). It will take a long post to really answer the points of your post, so here goes!

First, some advice for those who might still be in the position of getting into corns, and hoping to do a little side business in breeding, such as you are starting:

In my opinion, it is a mistake to jump in too deeply the first few years. If you haven't already been breeding some type of reptiles in the past, but really want to get into it, I would suggest approx. a 2.4 group of corns to get started. That number gives you multiple males and females to fairly well assure some success, and enough to include some interesting genes, but not so many so as to be overwhelming, or to cost such a financial outlay that lack of success at first will cause a great burden. Then pairs and trios can be added slowly, as experience guides the numbers and choices to be made. I have seen many newcomers in the past get into this present predicament by extending themselves to the limit, either financially or by time constraints (or both), so that any small set back is really devastating. Starting small keeps the potential downside small, and allows you to build on success, or learn from small failures.

You are already past the point of that advice. However, thinking about the fact that you may have more than you need right now, and might have jumped in a little too quickly and deeply, might help to ease your stress level a little, knowing that you are dealing with a heavier load than most new breeders deal with. And it will also help to illustrate the possible pitfalls for other readers who may be thinking of getting into breeding. You ABSOLUTELY should not consider getting completely out of the hobby, just because you took on too much too soon. Cut back if you must, but this is way too soon to get out.

Actually, your year doesn't sound THAT bad, considering it is your first year. There is no way you should expect to have the same success rate with your hatchlings on your very first year that somebody has had after decades of doing the same thing, year after year (another good reason for starting small and learning something new each year). Even after all of these years, I still try to make some changes each year, as I notice the result of any changes made from the previous year. It is a never ending education, which is what keeps it interesting. If you had the same success the first year that you will have after 20 years, and thus would never need to change anything, then this would be a REALLY boring business / hobby to be involved in!

So let's analyze the good and the bad points of your first year.

It sounds like your adults have been doing pretty well, and performing more or less as expected. It sounds as though it is really only the hatchlings that are giving you problems. That is not so bad, when you consider that the hatchlings are replaced with new ones each year, but your adults are more or less "permanent". You have to consider the hatchlings as your learning tools, especially in the first few years. In the wild, most will be food for predators, and only a very few will eventually grow up to replace their parents. In captivity, in most years, most will get the chance to grow up, unlike their wild cousins. But a few will succumb, either due to their genetics not being favorable to their environment, or to chance, or to our own mistakes or lack of knowledge. Some years, most will survive. Other years, a larger than usual number will perish. There are good years, and bad years, as others have noted. But as long as your adults stay healthy, there is always next year.

I do have to say that I personally would never consider breeding corns without some live pinks available, either breeding myself or locally available. I also find it important to keep a cage of deer mice, to use the dirty bedding for scenting regular, live pinks. I find that about 25% or more of non-feeders will often take the scented pinks. If you are not willing or able to do this, then you might have to consider planning ahead to send out your babies very cheaply to somebody who can do this, as soon as they have refused 2 weeks of thawed pinks, so you don't have to deal with them, and they still have a pretty good chance of eating live or scented pinks for somebody able to offer it to them. Some will refuse the live and scented as well, but many will take them. If you have a regular job already, perhaps you are better off just dumping the babies that won't immediately eat f/t, and saving yourself the headache, and giving them the best chance for survival.

OTOH, if you are really planning to make a real business out of this eventually, then it is important for you to get the experience of raising the "pain-in-the-rear" babies that want weird treatment, and for you to experience the "joy and sorrow" of success and failure, and to learn everything you can.

Remember, the reason you are seeing so many ads right now is that EVERYONE is hatching their corns now. I put mine into an "a/c" brumation period in Sept and Oct just so that I will have babies in late spring and early summer, before the big hatch. So you have to figure out your own marketing strategy, whether it is to brumate and breed early, late, or hold them for a while until the annual glut is past, or just wholesale a lot of them as soon as they hatch. Each strategy has pros and cons. That is actually a very interesting part of the business, in my opinion.

In summary, I think it is important for you to look at this as your first learning experiment, that was more success than failure, for your first year. It is too bad that you had so many that the experience was overwhelming the first year, but at least it was enough that you should now sit down with your numbers and statistics, and decide the direction you want to go. It is really important to take into account your individual situation in regards to your time and money available, your interests and future goals, and your own emotional ability to deal with various setbacks. Then you can make a realistic plan of how many (and what type) of adults to keep, babies to produce, and whether you should just wholesale most off, or deal with feeding issues and reap the rewards of your extra work.

Hope that helped a little to put some things into a long-term perspective. Don't give up - just tailor your projects to your own needs and goals.

 

[El Jefe]

IUnfortunately for all of us, the economy is such where we are all going to have to either hang onto most of what we've hatched out in hopes of eventually finding a buyer, sell as much as we can at a greatly reduced rate or euthanize more than we would normally do in order to be able to keep the rest.

I agree with a lot of what you said but have to take issue with this statement. I've had a really good year so far and haven't had to drop prices much below last year. In fact, with many of the morphs I'm doing slightly better this year than last year. Hopefully Daytona will be the same but I guess we'll see.

But...that being said, I produce a lot of different stuff and have resigned myself long ago to wholesale the common stuff for pretty cheap so that changes the outlook a little.

 

[carol]

Great post Kathy, and I have to know for education's sake.... How many years did you breed snakes before you could make a living off of it?

 

[kathylove]

That's a little difficult to answer. That is because I started keeping snakes in high school, back in the '60s. Then I had a traveling reptile exhibit (with hubby-to-be, and another partner) back in the mid '70s. We actually did breed just a few pairs of reptiles while on the road, although that was not our primary business. We got married in '79 and soon settled down with the idea of breeding reptiles. It was a pretty radical idea back in the early '80s, and only a few people were regularly breeding any herps, mostly out on the West Coast.

We had no reliable income in the early '80s, so just tried to breed a few assorted reptiles, mostly colubrid snakes and Burmese pythons, while I also went to nursing school during that time, so I could make enough money to try to do a full time business. Our plan was to actually breed mice and rats as a full time business, and breed reptiles as a side line business. We produced our very first amel corns in 1985, and that was the beginning of breeding large numbers of reptiles. By 1988, we produced enough rodents and reptiles for me to quit nursing. And at the end of 1989, we started Glades Herp with Rob MacInnes and ran that until splitting in 1996, when we went back to being a home business breeding mostly corns.

So the reason it is difficult to answer your question is that I don't know if you want to count "starting to breed" when I got my first accidental babies back in the early '70s, or when we bred a few assorted herps in the early '80s, or when we started a more organized breeding program in the mid'80s. But it has been awhile, no matter which method you use. Sorry it had to be such a long post, but it was a more complicated question than it seemed!

 

[Maize411]

This is just my personal thought..but maybe you just jumped into it too quickly, it sounds like you overwhelmed yourself with things you weren't even ready for..You stated you didn't even know what proper things to buy or where..I would just say before you do more future breeding you should do some research on habits of hatchlings and supplies needed for breeding....Being prepared in something always reduces stress if even a little bit..I can understand becoming so caught up into the hobby..in a matter of a year I went from 1 snake to 4..(technically 6 but 2 got away and were never seen again)..It's so easy to get caught up in the hobby and just want more and more..But that is when lines and limits have to be made, this way when it comes time to breed your not running around like a chicken without a head...Again these are just my thoughts..I'm sure you did research but in the future you should always look for more to learn :0)