Question for breeders

[Rake]

Breeders, a question for you: Do you sell all of your hatchlings each year? It seems difficult to believe that the snake trade is expanding at such a rate that it consumes all of the hatchlings I see getting brought to market across all species (corns, balls, etc.). Not only that, but there are more breeders each year, and the existing ones have more and more clutches via holdbacks and chasing new morphs. These snakes live for a good 15+ years, as well, so once any given consumer gets a few I would think they would be set for a decade. And there are lots of adult snakes being offered for rehoming on Craigslist and such as well, which eats up a good portion of the market. How in the hell are all of these hatchlings selling each year? How? This is just boggling my mind!

Lets say you have 100 babies this year, and you hold back 5. Do you actually sell the remaining 95 animals? Are you turning buyers away because you don't have enough? Are the high priced triple morphs and such selling as well?

I just came across a Kingsnake in my favorite morph (Mosaic Florida's), that has a second recessive gene I've never seen in them before (Anery). If I was ever to start a breeding project, that girl would be the basis for it. And after having just finished watching all 240 Snakebytes episodes... this is starting to weigh pretty heavily on my mind.

 

[bitsy]

I guess that's a question for every type of longer-living pet. There's an active market for kittens and puppies, but they also commonly live 10-15 years.

 

[Rake]

The thing about dogs and cats is that they are constantly getting spayed/neutered because there are way too many of them. Every city has lots of pounds and rescue shelters in them, and lots of animals get put down every day because no home can be found for them. Those shelters often need lots of volunteers and donations to keep them from going under, as well.

To my knowledge, this scenario has not played out with reptiles yet.

 

[Shiari]

It's a sad fact that there's a decent "mortality" rate with many people who buy reptiles but don't end up on a community like this. So their baby snake dies and they then go get another one. Disease, poor husbandry, congenital issues all play into it.

 

[Christen]

No not every breeder is going to sell all of their snakes every year. I would really recommend, if you are going to breed, stay small. I only have between 1 and 3 clutches a year and I do manage to sell almost all of the babies every year. I do keep enough food on hand for those hatchings to feed for a year so I know that I can take care of that many mouths if I don't sell a one.

I think the biggest difference between the dog/cat trade and snakes is we have less "back yard breeders" so even though our snakes are not spayed and neutered we have less "accidents". Plus breeders tend to weed them selves out faster with snakes than cats and dogs because it can be difficult to sell the babies. Unlike cute little puppies that go pretty quickly and the breeder makes a quick buck so does it again. Most the time those don't vaccinate puppies or etc. With snakes you learn pretty quickly that there is no money in it so you have to do it for the love of snakes in order to keep doing it. So you may see 5 new people saying they are breeders but really come the next year maybe only 1 or 2 will bother to breed again.

I know I was like you and did tons of research and even did a "test" clutch. Where every baby was place in a home before they even hatched. I did not make one penny in fact because I didn't sell any I was in the hole but I knew at that point what it took and I knew how much and if I could do it. At that point is when I set up my website and got certified to ship.

Breed what you love! Because it is very real that you may hold onto those babies and you might as well like what you have. Don't look for the latest and greatest morph because in all reality someone else is doing the same thing. So by the time you grow your babies and breed them their value is going to go down so stick with projects that you want to grow up and see develop.

 

[bitsy]

It's a sad fact that there's a decent "mortality" rate with many people who buy reptiles but don't end up on a community like this. So their baby snake dies and they then go get another one. Disease, poor husbandry, congenital issues all play into it.

Where does this "fact" come from? Is it actually just a guess or a theory? Are there any stats or studies to support it?

It's a pretty upsetting point of view. I wouldn't have bred Corns if I believed this were true. No breeder worth the name would perpetuate a market which relied on dead hatchlings to sustain it.

 

[Shiari]

It's from what I've seen based on my work, and that's just the people who bring their animals to the vet. Had a ball python yearling the size of a hatchling in the other day with body length blisters because the owner didn't have anything to regulate their heat sources. And the owner was in denial about the snake being burned. Not that long ago had an eggbound chameleon that was bred too young and she died. Had a ball python in on Friday with severe stomatitis because it got bit IN the mouth by a live rat, and that owner was responsible compared to most of the ones I see. Also had a carpet python with pneumonia last week. And a red-eared slider with a lacerated foot and pockmarked shell that lived free range in a backyard with a pond the size of a 20 gallon tank to swim in. The local petcos also bring us their ill/injured reptiles so we see a fair number of their non-feeders, mite-infested, or otherwise sickly critters.

 

[AliCat37]

Where does this "fact" come from? Is it actually just a guess or a theory? Are there any stats or studies to support it?

It's a pretty upsetting point of view. I wouldn't have bred Corns if I believed this were true. No breeder worth the name would perpetuate a market which relied on dead hatchlings to sustain it.

Not sure where I read it, but about 80% of reptiles won't make it past their first year.

 

[Chip]

Not sure where I read it, but about 80% of reptiles won't make it past their first year.

I would wager you read it from HSUS or some anti-reptile organization. I sure wouldn't accept that number as fact. From my perspective as a pet shop owner, I would believe that 80% first year number for green iggys and RES maybe. Surely the cheap wild-caught imports have a lower than acceptable survival rate, because not only do they have extreme stress and potential disease exposure just getting to a pet shop or reptile show, but the buyers aren't likely to invest a lot in their enclosure or care, let alone take a ten dollar reptile to a vet.

To answer the OP's question, yes, I sell every perfect reptile that I produce. If I don't sell them the first year, I feed them and try them again as yearlings. They eventually all will sell. Maybe not for as much as I had hoped to get out of them. Maybe not even as much as I had invested them in food and time. But they all sell.

 

[Nanci]

So far I've sold everyone I didn't intend to keep! I've only had one make it to yearling status- and he's an amazing beauty- so I'm not sure why! His name is Fuego if anyone needs a super-nuclear-bright Hypo Fire, 100% het anery stripe

 

[Pugsley]

So far I've sold everyone I didn't intend to keep! I've only had one make it to yearling status- and he's an amazing beauty- so I'm not sure why! His name is Fuego if anyone needs a super-nuclear-bright Hypo Fire, 100% het anery stripe

Stop tempting me Nanci. I go look at him every week or so. He is gorgeous.

The best reason to breed, is you want one or more of the offspring yourself. Never expect to make a living at it, for any animal. If you do, you are very lucky.

 

[Nanci]

(You should see him him person!!!)

 

[AliCat37]

I would wager you read it from HSUS or some anti-reptile organization. I sure wouldn't accept that number as fact.

That actually might be where I read it.

Over all with exotics though, including things like big cats, etc, 80% won't see three years old. 90% + of wolf dogs get put down before their third birthday. Totally different game than snakes though.

 

[Reptileman81]

The other thing to look at in the difference with dogs/cats to reptiles is a dog/cat owner usually only has 1-2 dogs/cats. While a reptile owner has several cages set up everywhere with several reptiles in their home. With reptiles people can't just stop at 1-2.

The market is also controlled by breeders. Breeders are always buying, selling and trading with each other to start new projects.

 

[Reptileman81]

I for one do sell off everything before it's a year old. I also had my biggest producing year this year of only around a hundred hatchlings. Some will be sold here or on another site, some will get whole sale out and some were donated to a good cause. Out of that 100 I have more then 5 hold backs. More like 15 for future projects.

 

[bitsy]

It's from what I've seen based on my work, and that's just the people who bring their animals to the vet.

I'm sorry, but that's like a GP saying that the majority of people in the US must be ill or dying, because most of the ones they see in their surgeries are.

Of course you see sick, dying and mistreated snakes - that's your job! I'd be equally confident in saying that you see a small minority of the reptiles in your area, most of which will never need a vet in their lives.

I currently have 14 snakes. Of these, 1 has seen a vet 3 times when she became eggbound (initial check, operation, follow-up visit) and another saw the vet once for x-rays after a failed escape attempt. By your logic, most of my snakes are therefore sick or on the verge of expiring!

 

[Shiari]

And how many are we not seeing because the owners go "it's just a snake/lizard, I can get another one"? How many people don't go the doctor even when they're sick?

We see it with dogs and cats all the time. Plenty of DOA parvo puppies, dystocias, "oh yeah, she's been losing weight for months". We've had plenty of people become upset after having a puppy die of parvo when we tell them that if they get any more puppies within the next couple years, they'll likely also get parvo. They weren't upset about the dead puppy, just the cost of the medical expenses and the thought of incurring more.

I see it all the time on yahoo! answers: "My snake has vomited", "lizard hasn't eaten in 2 weeks", "Is my turtle sick?". When you tell people to take it to the vet, the typical response is either "There aren't any" or "It's too expensive".

The snake with the burns, the owner honestly thought there was nothing odd about the fact that her 1 year old ball python weighed 100 grams. The only reason she brought it in was the fact that the entire snake was a blister by that point. The only not-burned part was its head.

I've been at petco and overheard stuff like "Yeah, our leopard gecko just up and died. We're here to get new one." Of course, I've also heard petco employees recommend heat rocks.

 

[bitsy]

I honestly think your perspective is a bit off, but I can see where you're coming from. I still don't think reptiles are any better/worse than other pets for these issues.

 

[Chip]

I honestly think your perspective is a bit off, but I can see where you're coming from. I still don't think reptiles are any better/worse than other pets for these issues.

I think 90% of it comes down to to how much the animal costs, unfortunately.

 

[Alli_Draggy]

One reason we adopted an adult snake was because I've been involved in cat rescue/adoption, and I know that cute and little finds homes but adults are much harder to rehome. I admit, though, those little babies at repticon are adorable, especially when they seem to be saying "take me home and out of this deli cup!"