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Regurgitation issues continued

C

cobra314

New member
I have asked on here about this before. I got my first snake from Petsmart and had regurge issues. I went through everything including taking her to the vet. I finally took her back and got a different snake. Had the same issues. The manager at Petsmart had worked with me through the entire process so I was able to return the second one. I have checked and rechecked my temperatures, changed to bottled water, not handled them, even had someone come to my house and look at my setup. I purchased a new one from a breeder. This guy is almost 2 years old and very healthy. Fed him for the first time and he ate well. Pooped after 2 1/2 days. I weighed him on the third day. That night he regurgitated what was left of his meal. It has always happened on the 3rd night.
I have the viv set up in my living room near the back door. I have an 8 yr old son and a 5yr old daughter that are....well...kids. They don't mess with the viv, but are always playing, are loud, and go out to the backyard to play. I am wondering if I should move the viv to a different room until he settles in a little more. He is very active and curious and always moving around his viv to check things out. It's the only thing left that I can think of. I'm going crazy!!
 
What type of thermometer are you measuring temperatures with? What are they in the coolest and warmest end? Where are your mice coming from? I'd bet if it isn't temperature related, it's the food. Stress can cause a regurge, but I wouldn't think typical household kid noise would be enough to, but you would know better how much vibration is coming to the tank on a daily basis. In the future, I wouldn't weigh until the snake has defecated, you'll get a more accurate weight empty anyway.
 
I have a thermometer in the tank and I also have a laser hand held. The mice have come from 4 different sources throughout this process. I did wait until after he pooped to weigh him. On the warm side it is 80-85 on the surface of the aspen and cool side is 70-75. I check it just about every day because this has been such an issue. I'm almost to the point of saying to heck with having a snake. I don't really want to do that though. He does not stay in one area for very long except for sleeping under the aspen on the cool side during the day. He continually goes from the warm hide to the cool side to up in the tree/vines etc.
 
80 for the warm side is a little cool. I wouldn't expect regurges at 80, but digestion will be slower. Bump your thermostat up a couple of degrees, and keep it around 84-86 on the heat. Again, these temps aren't off enough to cause this problem, but compounded with stress, it might be the tipping point.
If the snake regurged, he was not empty when you weighed him. Any chance the mice are too large?
 
No. I have fed them according to size and the Munson chart. The 80-85 is the average temp range of the warm side. Inside the hide it is right at 85/86. On the perimeter near the glass it is closer to 80. Keep in mind that this is 3 different snakes all having the exact same issue and have been fed from 4 different mouse sources.
 
Back off on your feeder size. The Munson plan is not for every snake, I've had all kinds of regurges using it, it's an aggressive plan to grow out snakes quickly.
 
I have always chosen small pinkies for the younger ones and I fed the new guy the smallest of the fuzzies that they had at the store. He is at 40 grams and ate it with no problem. I have some that are between pinkie/fuzzy stage that I could try with him.
 
After a regurge, definitely give him at least a week of no food and then a very small meal. I would cut slits in its back and also dust it with Nutribac.

How do the mice smell and look when you hear them up? How are you thawing them?
 
If you are having regurge issues, smaller meals are always safer. I wish people wouldn't recommend the Munson plan so freely. It really isn't appropriate for every corn. Weigh the food items, and stay 50 to 75% of the Muson plans suggestions, but shave a day off of feeding frequency, and I expect your problems might go away. After the regurge protocol is finished, of course. Good luck, I expect we might have found the problem. A tad cool + vibration stress + big meals might have added up. I don't feed anything that isn't actively crawling on feeding day, either.
 
I will check the weight/size on the ones I have and give that a shot. Thanks for the help and I will get back with results!
 
Best wishes. Definitely give him ten days before offering food, and make the first meal very small. After a defecation, you can feed again.
 
I have been thawing them using about 8 oz of water, microwaved for 1:20 then put the mouse in a plastic bag and put into water for 10 minutes. Not sure abourt the look and smell.....they look like thawed dead mice. I haven't smelled anything bad so not sure what else to be looking for.
 
Odds of getting bad mice from four consecutive places are very low. In ten days, give a tiny meal, and don't handle at all until after defecation.
Kathy Love FAQ's

FAQ from Kathy Love on Regurgitation Treatment

THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT - once a snake has regurged, especially twice or more, it is more likely to keep on regurging until it dies, unless something is changed about its care and feeding. It is very important NOT to let this continue. PLEASE FOLLOW THE INSTRUCTIONS BELOW VERY CAREFULLY. This is from my FAQ on regurges:

I suspect your problem is probably not bad mice, but about handling too soon, feeding too soon or too large of a meal, a stomach "bug", or improper temps. If you make these mistakes once, or even twice, it is not usually a problem if you FOLLOW MY INSTRUCTIONS EXACTLY. But remember, each time it regurges, the stomach acids are depleted, and the whole electrolyte balance is thrown off more and more each time, and it makes it MORE likely that it will continue to throw up until it dies. (those consequences are just my opinions - I do not know if science backs up my conclusions, but my experience certainly does!) That is why it is so important to NOT ALLOW another regurge.

The next month or two is crucial. DO NOT feed it for AT LEAST 8 days since the last regurge. NOT ANYTHING AT ALL! Then get a newborn frozen pinky and cut it in half (or cut off just the head) If she eats it, leave her alone for a whole week. (no handling). Repeat the partial pinkie feeding the following week. Then feed a whole newborn pinkie a week after that, if there has been no regurge. Leave alone for a whole week. If she regurges, wait a week and repeat 1/2 pinkie. If she keeps it down, wait a week and repeat whole pinkie. If she holds down a couple of meals, DO NOT rush back into larger meals and more handling. Treat this seriously. Go very slowly. After 3 successful meals, go to a newborn pink every 5 days. Go back to normal feedings only after 6 successful meals. Always wait to handle until after 3 or 4 days, but only AFTER 6 successful meals. No handling until then (causes stress, need to keep stress down). And NEVER feed again right after a regurge - ALWAYS wait AT LEAST 7 or 8 days, maybe even up to 10 days, and then only feed something that was about 1/2 the size (or less) of what she regurged..

Also, be sure that temps are not too warm or cool. Try to give an area of low to mid 80s on one side and 70s on the other. Too hot or cold will cause regurges.

Grapefruit seed extract can sometimes help if the snake has some sort of "stomach bug" (any microbial problem) as it is a natural remedy that is good against many kinds of pathogens, but not as strong as an antibiotic prescribed by a doctor. This product has been used in agriculture for many years and seems to be very safe, as long as you dilute it with enough water that the acidity does not burn the tissues. A vet has told me he feels that it may somewhat alter the pH of the animal and thus change the way medicines are absorbed. So if you use this product and then take the snake to a vet, mention the treatment so it can be taken into account if the vet decides to change the prescription because of it. It is best to mix it in a glass and taste it to make sure it is not so bitter that the snake refuses to drink it. I have used it on myself and so has my husband. I find it works better on stomach problems than for other symptoms (such as respiratory - I didn't have any luck treating colds or other respiratory problems).You can buy it at a local health food store or online. Please refer to the following website for more background info:
http://www.nutriteam.com/index2.html

I have also had success with a probiotic called Nutri Bac, a fine powder containing seven different microflora that should be inhabiting the gut of reptiles, but may be absent due to stress, disease, antibiotic treatments, etc. Using the powder as a supplement will sometimes allow the reptile to get back the natural balance of microbes in its digestive tract, and then its own immune system can take over. See my website for more details, or go here:
http://www.cornutopia.com/Corn Ut...information.htm

The number of days and amounts of food, etc, suggested above are not set in stone. Other people may have success with slightly different formulas, but this is what I found works for me and many of my customers. If this protocol does not work when carefully followed, it is likely that the snake has some severe problems. Your only hope is a QUALIFIED herp vet, who may or may not be able to save your pet.

Please follow my care sheet for the first month or so when starting with new acquisitions (posted on my website for the first month's care of new corns).. The first month is crucial in getting the baby established. It is worth a little extra "coddling" for the first month in order to have a trouble free pet for the next 10 or 15 years or more.

Good luck!
Kathy Love

CONTACT INFO:

CORNUTOPIA / Kathy Love
Captive-Bred Cornsnakes

WEB: http://www.CornUtopia.com
TEL: (239) 728 2390
Backup tel. # 239-691-4414 (Cell)
EMAIL: [email protected]
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cobra314 said:
I have been thawing them using about 8 oz of water, microwaved for 1:20 then put the mouse in a plastic bag and put into water for 10 minutes. Not sure abourt the look and smell.....they look like thawed dead mice. I haven't smelled anything bad so not sure what else to be looking for.
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Try thawing at room temp. That way the entire rodent is completely and slowly thawed. Then, once it is fully thawed, heat it in hot water before feeding. And listen to what Chip says, he is spot on. I'm not sure why the munson plan is so highly recommended here, I find it a recipe for overweight snakes. Anything under a year old gets fed every 5 days here, the rest get fed every 10 days. I wouldn't feed a Juvie/2 year more than every 7 days or so. And yes, allow some recuperation time after regurge and proceed with a smaller prey item.
 
How much does the snake weigh? The more I've been feeding the munson plan the more I'm backing off as it's more aggressive than what I want. I haven't had any regurgitation issues (knock wood).
 
drybgerg said:
How much does the snake weigh? The more I've been feeding the munson plan the more I'm backing off as it's more aggressive than what I want. I haven't had any regurgitation issues (knock wood).
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He is 40 grams. I fed him the smallest fuzzy in the bunch and it looked to be about right. I plan to go a little smaller now though.
 
Here is another question. I was talking with my father and he asked are snakes supposed to keep all of the mouse down. He was thinking that after digesting most of the mouse they get rid of the skin/bones. Should they be digesting the entire mouse?
 
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