ForkedTung
Serpent Mound Monk
No kidding, I just found this, although I was a part of the thread that initiated this one. I'm afraid to reply to this so I won't (lol).
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Release or Euthanize Cornsnakes? What's your opinion?
- Thread starter Em Wright
- Start date
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El Jefe
Mark 16:18
Couple thoughts...
1) No reason to release a corn into the wild. Kill it off if need be. (Of course there are very few exceptions like those Chip mentioned about F1's from WC stock released in the same area but even that has problems.)
2) Wade is cool
and...
Those offspring "should" have been produced? Really? Did you catch breeding pairs and keep those pairs together or did you catch snakes and decide which ones would be put together
:sidestep:
Illegal? Not unless there are new laws. Illegal perhaps in some counties or city limits (none that I'm aware of, however) but definitely not statewide.
1) No reason to release a corn into the wild. Kill it off if need be. (Of course there are very few exceptions like those Chip mentioned about F1's from WC stock released in the same area but even that has problems.)
2) Wade is cool
and...
Those offspring "should" have been produced? Really? Did you catch breeding pairs and keep those pairs together or did you catch snakes and decide which ones would be put together
:sidestep:Illegal? Not unless there are new laws. Illegal perhaps in some counties or city limits (none that I'm aware of, however) but definitely not statewide.
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starsevol
Cohabbing is cruelty...
I second this!
wade
Save The Humans
Maybe what we should really address is our responsibility as breeders to think a little more about what we are doing. We do our best to avoid sickness and disease in our snakes. Some genetic problems are not fully understood yet like kinked spines. I think releasing any of those animals into the wild would just be entirely irresponsible. That is no better than putting them in the freezer except you don’t have to watch them die. That is completely a cop out.
Undesired colors and patterns are a different thing. If you don’t think you will be able to sell normals next year, don’t breed them. But sometimes you breed different colors and get normals. Those are your responsibility to deal with. If you can’t sell them for cheap to someone or give them away or feed them to your kingsnake then I think the freezer is the best answer. Nobody likes to do that. I have frozen non-feeders and hate it. But it is part of the game and I believe more humane than putting them outside to starve or screw put the natural balance that was in place.
Bottom line, if you breed snakes or puppies, it’s your responsibility to deal with the offspring.
Undesired colors and patterns are a different thing. If you don’t think you will be able to sell normals next year, don’t breed them. But sometimes you breed different colors and get normals. Those are your responsibility to deal with. If you can’t sell them for cheap to someone or give them away or feed them to your kingsnake then I think the freezer is the best answer. Nobody likes to do that. I have frozen non-feeders and hate it. But it is part of the game and I believe more humane than putting them outside to starve or screw put the natural balance that was in place.
Bottom line, if you breed snakes or puppies, it’s your responsibility to deal with the offspring.
Silvergrin
New member
Late to the party, but this is something I've wondered about a little (ie, if it would be okay to advise someone with an unexpected clutch they did not want to deal with to release their babies) especially since my family is fond of telling me I ought to release my snakes :nope:
-- if the animal is a NATIVE SPECIES (ie, cornsnakes are native to north america) then I don't have a huge ethical issue with this. I think it's a little cruel if the snake is an albino or another brightly colored morph, though, because it's going to be eaten really quickly... but I guess it'll make some hawk really happy
-- if the animal is NOT NATIVE then never, never NEVER RELEASE!!!! That is what I have the real problem with, people who buy an exotic that's actually exotic and then just let it go when they don't feel like taking care of it. BEST case scenario is the animal dies. Worst case the animal thrives, finds another abandoned pet, breeds, and starts destroying native flora and fauna. Irresponsible pet owners like this make me think maybe exotics should be banned, or at least heavily regulated, and I normally hate that idea. But I hate the idea of australia's wildlife being destroyed by cats, florida's by burmese pythons, etc, even more. Never, never release non-native species.
That's about my thoughts on it.
-- if the animal is a NATIVE SPECIES (ie, cornsnakes are native to north america) then I don't have a huge ethical issue with this. I think it's a little cruel if the snake is an albino or another brightly colored morph, though, because it's going to be eaten really quickly... but I guess it'll make some hawk really happy
-- if the animal is NOT NATIVE then never, never NEVER RELEASE!!!! That is what I have the real problem with, people who buy an exotic that's actually exotic and then just let it go when they don't feel like taking care of it. BEST case scenario is the animal dies. Worst case the animal thrives, finds another abandoned pet, breeds, and starts destroying native flora and fauna. Irresponsible pet owners like this make me think maybe exotics should be banned, or at least heavily regulated, and I normally hate that idea. But I hate the idea of australia's wildlife being destroyed by cats, florida's by burmese pythons, etc, even more. Never, never release non-native species.
That's about my thoughts on it.
Chip
ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒ&
I agree, and in retrospect it was probably irresponsible of me to play devil's advocate in this thread.
Something we can all agree on!
One of the most frustrating aspects of summer collecting was that almost every adult female was gravid. So the deed was done -and I had no info on 1/2 the genetics of the progeny. In future years, though, your point is solid as Sears.Those offsprig "should" have been produced? Really? Did you catch breeding pairs and keep those pairs together or did you catch snakes and decide which ones would be put together
My understanding was that in addition to trespassing, the Jeep driving goons who patrol Okeetee would have you charged with collection of wildlife. I never looked at the legislation, but never had any reason to doubt it. It seems like an old member on this forum went to jail for hunting Okeetee. I'd try a search, but have a feeling that there are a few thousand hits for any keyword I can think of.
I bring myself back here again. This thread seems to not want to die. To each, his own. Never would you catch me putting any snake in the freezer for any reason, if you have a sick snake, I'm all about doing your best to care for it, and letting nature take it's course. Not doing your best to care for it, then freezing it to death in your freezer. Sounds ubsurd to me.
If the animal is native to the area you live in, let the creature go and wish it the best. That is what I would do and no bullsh%t is going to convince me otherwise. PERIOD.
If the animal is native to the area you live in, let the creature go and wish it the best. That is what I would do and no bullsh%t is going to convince me otherwise. PERIOD.
You don't make any sense...
Nobody here said that as soon as their snake caught the "snake sniffles" they were going to just kill it. I know that's not what I meant. When the animal has been treated, given a proper amount of time to recover and the condition is just worsening then you end its suffering! Plain and simple. Why would anybody ever want to "let nature take its course" and watch a suffering animal die slowly? Why?? I just can't wrap my mind around something that I see as absurd (to use your terminology).
Please help me to understand this, because right now I don't. Not in the least!
Nobody here said that as soon as their snake caught the "snake sniffles" they were going to just kill it. I know that's not what I meant. When the animal has been treated, given a proper amount of time to recover and the condition is just worsening then you end its suffering! Plain and simple. Why would anybody ever want to "let nature take its course" and watch a suffering animal die slowly? Why?? I just can't wrap my mind around something that I see as absurd (to use your terminology).
Please help me to understand this, because right now I don't. Not in the least!
danielle
New member
Oh wilmer your lighting a fire, lol! You have to know people do whatever they can to save their animals and do not consider euthenization until that animals is obviously suffering- it is a last resort and not something anyone does with a light heart. Exposing other animals to a sick corn poses too many plausible catastrophies not to mention captive bred animals are hopeless in the wild. You are however entitled to your opinion so I will not bother to flame you.
TribalWolf77
New member
My opinion is it's better to euthanize an animal if it's going to suffer. Why keep an animal alive only to suffer, and why release it to potentially make more animals sick?
Just my $.02.
Just my $.02.
MinLynn
What blonde chick?!
But, what if you HAVE done everything you possibly can to treat an ill snake and yet, still, the snake is going to suffer and die? Pretty much your saying you'd release it to the wild so that YOU aren't responsible for it's death. Because, guess what, it's going to die regardless of whether it's put in the freezer or if it's put out into the wild. I've never had to euthanize a snake yet and since I've never bred yet I haven't had to deal with euthanizing hatchlings. If it came down to watching a snake suffer an agonizing death after I've done everything in my power to save it or having a snake born with a sever deformity that would not have any quality of life, I'd have no problem euthanizing. Of course this would only be done if it was the final course of action. Releasing to the wild is just wiping your hands clean of it in my opinion so that you don't have to feel any responsibility, not because you think it's nature's way. If you believed in "nature's way" you'd never own captive snakes to begin with. Or are there snakes in nature living in tubs that I'm not aware of? Hmmmm........I'll have to check on that!
The people who are advocating releasing non-native (or native captive) species into the wild are the reason bills like HR669 are introduced. Not only can snakes survive in environments that aren't a perfect fit, they can breed, interact with local species, pass on diseases that native populations have no defense against, and compete for food.
The ecological impact of non-native invasive species is seen not only in the Everglades, but in Australia (to a horrific degree), The Great Lakes, the northeast US, and many other places. Not only is 'nature' effected, but crops and livestock as well.
Yes, it is 'just' a Cornsnake. Zebra mussels are just a bivalve, fruit flies are just a bug... and look at the damage they've caused.
In addition to being damaging, is allowing a defective snake to suffer for weeks while it dies ethical? The majority opinion on this forum is that snakes are pets, rather than display animals, and I'm willing to say not many here would allow a rabbit or a bird to starve and freeze to death in the same situation. However, humane euthanization (which freezing is ABSOLUTELY NOT) is painless and quick.
True love and stewardship of the animals you enjoy involves conservation and responsible, ethical actions in all things. Neither of these is accomplished by releasing animals into the wild.
The ecological impact of non-native invasive species is seen not only in the Everglades, but in Australia (to a horrific degree), The Great Lakes, the northeast US, and many other places. Not only is 'nature' effected, but crops and livestock as well.
Yes, it is 'just' a Cornsnake. Zebra mussels are just a bivalve, fruit flies are just a bug... and look at the damage they've caused.
In addition to being damaging, is allowing a defective snake to suffer for weeks while it dies ethical? The majority opinion on this forum is that snakes are pets, rather than display animals, and I'm willing to say not many here would allow a rabbit or a bird to starve and freeze to death in the same situation. However, humane euthanization (which freezing is ABSOLUTELY NOT) is painless and quick.
True love and stewardship of the animals you enjoy involves conservation and responsible, ethical actions in all things. Neither of these is accomplished by releasing animals into the wild.
Darcpixie
New member
It seems like something that would help this discussion be less of a mud-slinging match is a determination of WHEN euthanasia occurs.
Kinking... Do you euthanize for ANY kinking? Or for functionality-effecting kinking? If it is a functional kinked snake... will you keep it? Or will you remove it from the gene pool? If we are worried about a genetic component, why are we still breeding the parents and siblings of the kinked snakes? At this point, we have not been able to prove that kinking is or is NOT related to genetics... so why are we pussy-footing around it?
Why do we not terminate breeding of the line, if we are worried about perpetuating the kink? Just a thought here. I mean really, we should be contacting all with RELATIVES of the snake and requesting that they be removed from the breeding pool if we are worried about damaging the gene pool. Since I tend to not see that... what would the harm be in placing a FUNCTIONAL kinked snake as a pet? or to someone new-ish or at a hobby point in collection? Now, NON-functional kinked snakes... humane euthanasia after verifying that it is NOT able to feed/defacate seems to be the only sensible option.
Non-feeding... How long/at what point do you give up? There are a large number of standard and non-standard methods of getting corn snakes to feed... do you acquire lizards to scent with? do you drive them around? scent with tuna? chicken? chicken SKIN? brain pinkies/try live/do the dance of zombie doom? change substrates/hides/habitats/heat? Try brumating to stimulate feeding?
Would you attempt to rehome to a competent keeper? Given that some snakes are just not COMFORTABLE, even with optimal husbandry... maybe a difference is good? Do we base it on weight loss? lethergy? dehydration? Where do we draw the line?
My point here is that while we are discussing whether to release or euthanize... we haven't established the point of no return. While I personally am not an advocate of releasing captive born animals into the wild in a haphazard and non-population-re-establishment method, I believe it would make more sense to those who advocate it to an extent to know WHERE others draw the line.
Rotach has established that he is an advocate of NO human-caused death in other areas of this forum. and while I agree with the sentiment, I believe the point we are trying to get across is this: We brought this life into this world through our choice. This life would probably have ended quickly, but painfully, in the wild. If we have REACHED the point of no return, we humanely end the life. We have a responsibility to the animal that we brought to be, through our care, to ease it from the world if it is not able to survive, NOT prolong its life so that it can, a bit bigger, a bit older, receive the same probable fate it would have received in the wild.
Those are my hefty .02. Continue the debate please.
Kinking... Do you euthanize for ANY kinking? Or for functionality-effecting kinking? If it is a functional kinked snake... will you keep it? Or will you remove it from the gene pool? If we are worried about a genetic component, why are we still breeding the parents and siblings of the kinked snakes? At this point, we have not been able to prove that kinking is or is NOT related to genetics... so why are we pussy-footing around it?
Why do we not terminate breeding of the line, if we are worried about perpetuating the kink? Just a thought here. I mean really, we should be contacting all with RELATIVES of the snake and requesting that they be removed from the breeding pool if we are worried about damaging the gene pool. Since I tend to not see that... what would the harm be in placing a FUNCTIONAL kinked snake as a pet? or to someone new-ish or at a hobby point in collection? Now, NON-functional kinked snakes... humane euthanasia after verifying that it is NOT able to feed/defacate seems to be the only sensible option.
Non-feeding... How long/at what point do you give up? There are a large number of standard and non-standard methods of getting corn snakes to feed... do you acquire lizards to scent with? do you drive them around? scent with tuna? chicken? chicken SKIN? brain pinkies/try live/do the dance of zombie doom? change substrates/hides/habitats/heat? Try brumating to stimulate feeding?
Would you attempt to rehome to a competent keeper? Given that some snakes are just not COMFORTABLE, even with optimal husbandry... maybe a difference is good? Do we base it on weight loss? lethergy? dehydration? Where do we draw the line?
My point here is that while we are discussing whether to release or euthanize... we haven't established the point of no return. While I personally am not an advocate of releasing captive born animals into the wild in a haphazard and non-population-re-establishment method, I believe it would make more sense to those who advocate it to an extent to know WHERE others draw the line.
Rotach has established that he is an advocate of NO human-caused death in other areas of this forum. and while I agree with the sentiment, I believe the point we are trying to get across is this: We brought this life into this world through our choice. This life would probably have ended quickly, but painfully, in the wild. If we have REACHED the point of no return, we humanely end the life. We have a responsibility to the animal that we brought to be, through our care, to ease it from the world if it is not able to survive, NOT prolong its life so that it can, a bit bigger, a bit older, receive the same probable fate it would have received in the wild.
Those are my hefty .02. Continue the debate please.
Shiari
Blutterer
:fullauto:
As a veterinary technician, that incredibly callous attitude towards the suffering of an animal drives me bat insane. Nature is cruel, unfeeling, and often incredibly painful.
"Oh, I want my animal with the giant oral tumor who can't eat to die peacefully at home"
"I think he had a stroke and he isn't moving. Can I get a kitty coffin for when he dies?"
"She's lost a bunch of weight and has stopped eating and drinking, so we're just waiting for her to die."
Those animals are in *pain*. Starving is not a fun way to die. Lingering for days is not a fun way to die. If the snake is unable to eat from kinks, it should be euthanised so it does not have to STARVE TO DEATH, which can take months. The same if it cannot defecate, which is excruciatingly painful and since snakes don't have a separate urethra for removal of blood wastes, they get extra pain from the build up of toxins in the blood stream which cause, amongst other things, severe nausea, gastric pain, and neuropathy to occur.
Typically an animal that absolutely will not eat has something else wrong with it, the same way some mammals suffer from a 'failure to thrive' as neonates.
Euthanasia via freezing is something that squiks me a little just because of how painful severe cold can be... but I'm warm blooded and don't go into a stupor when temperatures drop into the 40s and 50s so it may be different for them. Gassing with CO2 would be very quick, and there's always the option of going to the veterinarian with regards to individual sick animals and euthanising the same as they do with cats and dogs... an overdose of a barbiturate which causes rapid anesthesia (absence of sensation) and continues deepening the plane of anesthesia until it shuts the entire nervous system down, which in turn shuts down the heart.
Euthanasia is, quite simply, a blessing that we can give to the animals we care for. It shows that we are not so heartless as to make them suffer simply because *we* can't let them go.
Releasing an ill and/or non-feeding animal outside is a travesty. Sick animals hide. That means that that individual is going to tuck itself away somewhere and continue starving to death, just where you can't see it... It doesn't make it any less horrible a way to die, just aesthetically pleasing because you don't have to watch it.:headbang:
And with these FACTS pointing out just how incredibly wrong releasing such animals is, and how it is in fact a great unkindness, I ask how you can continue to feel it's okay.
Fanaticism to an opinion based only on personal feelings shows a complete lack of brain function. At least my opinion has the facts of what happens when something starves, or has a build up of BUN, to back it up.
*stomps off*
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