Scaleless corns?

[ceduke]

WHOA! I don't like ROs with scales, but that scaleless RO is AMAZING!

 

[DMong]

Close but not quiet. The owner did in fact "admit" it but I hate the wording, it sounds as if he was intentionally trying to mislead people. The cross was made in France and it was made utilizing an emoryi x corn. Due to the lack of parental heritage, some what poor record keeping and the fact he did not keep the adults, the world will never know if it came from the corn or the emoryi.

Below I have pasted the article from the originators web site. It was in French and I used an online translator so forgive any mistakes but you get the jist of the article. I corresponded with the breeder and he again confirmed everything in the article but that is when I found out he didn't have the adults to test who the gene originated from.
QUOTE]

Thanks for the info there Daryl. So from what was said, I guess Brian marketed the corn x emoryi crosses as Teaxas Rats,....is this correct?, or was it soon afterwards they were a three-way cross corn x emoryi x Texas?, and Brian added the Texas Rat equation himself after he acquired them?


~Doug

 

[Thickscaled]

I saw one on BHB and started looking into them. I don't have any personal views on them yet, as I know pictures online and seeing them in person are two different things. I really want to see one as the name alone makes me wonder.

 

[Camby]

No problem. I can't speak for Bryan, but my understanding is that they are true scaleless texas rats. Who knows when it comes to the scaleless creamsicles everyone is calling scaleless corns. Maybe the originator of the gene was a scaleless texas x emoryi or corn. At this point we will never know if it was a pure gene or not.

dc

 

[DMong]

At this point we will never know if it was a pure gene or not.

Yeah, I hear that Daryl,......... as well as pretty much anything else produced afterwards in the future..:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:



cheers, ~Doug

 

[NiklasTyreso]

Who knows when it comes to the scaleless creamsicles everyone is calling scaleless corns. Maybe the originator of the gene was a scaleless texas x emoryi or corn. At this point we will never know if it was a pure gene or not.

What if scaleless cornsnakes are hybrids?
Who cares today about the origin of goldfish, cats or canary birds? They are great pets even if it is likely that they originated as hybrids.

In the long run, what matters are that the pets have to be appealing to humans and they have to be healthy in captive care.

Domesticated scaleless cornsnakes, just as domesticated goldfish, cats or canary birds, have traits that if they are put back into the wild make them suffer. But we should not put hybrid scaleless cornsnakes or other domesticated pets into the wild. Just breed beautiful animals that are healthy in captivity.

About the "pure gene" thing: "Pure" genes is not a biological concept. Genes are not pure or not pure, but they can have different origins.
I think purity might be a religious concept.

 

[DMong]

What if scaleless cornsnakes are hybrids?
Who cares today about the origin of goldfish, cats or canary birds? They are great pets even if it is likely that they originated as hybrids.

In the long run, what matters are that the pets have to be appealing to humans and they have to be healthy in captive care.

Domesticated scaleless cornsnakes, just as domesticated goldfish, cats or canary birds, have traits that if they are put back into the wild make them suffer. But we should not put hybrid scaleless cornsnakes or other domesticated pets into the wild. Just breed beautiful animals that are healthy in captivity.

About the "pure gene" thing: "Pure" genes is not a biological concept. Genes are not pure or not pure, but they can have different origins.
I think purity might be a religious concept.

I totally agree that "purity" is a very relative term and not accurate at all. Animals are nothing similar to a "pure" chemical manufactured in a lab or factory. I think the term authentic, genuine, or un-compromised is a more accurate term than "pure", as every single type of snake on this planet has changed and evolved over countless millenia at different rates due to different geological, biological and environmental factors to arrive at the specific entities they are today. However in my opinion the true hybrid issue has absolutely nothing to do with snakes going back out into the wild. In my opinion it has far more to do with people being able to own and enjoy "authentic" types of species or subspecies in their collections across the country, and to know and have confidence that's what they actually are. Be it a normal wild phenotype or genetic morph. Fact is unless a cross or hybrid is VERY distinct and noticeable, they later on are called whatever they happen to best represent at any time over the course of being bred and exchanging hands. This is the true dynamics of how the hobby really works. All that nonsense you here about Jo-blow "honestly" representing his crosses means NOTHING once those snakes leave the table. From then on as time goes by and the people forget what they were told about the snakes, lose or don't keep or care about records, etc.. they simply get called whatever someone happens to "think" they probably are at any given point. This is what "actually" happens, because I see it countless times every single day. Knowing what I know about meristic science and snake identification over many years, a good percentage of people in this hobby as a whole wanting to be breeders now days couldn't hardly tell a Burmese python from a Ringneck to be honest, but yet they want to be a breeder because they see so many others dong it and selling snakes.. :shrugs:

This hybrid scaleless thing here is just one TINY facet of what I am really referring to. In todays hobby more and more people are producing countless crosses and hybrids at a ridiculous rate that only end up tainting the authenticity of many other genuine types of snakes that are still out there in collections.

This happens from ignorance of simply not knowing the difference and from people doing it on purpose, but the outcome will always be the same regardless.....more unknown and questionable crosses to deal with ou in the hobby mainstream. This really won't affect me so much, because I have countless sources to get just about any kind of snake I choose to. But for the casual hobbyist, or the not very experienced keeper/breeder, they often tend to acquire lots of crossed or hybridized stuff from random sources and go by what someone else labeled them as and breed more of these snakes out of either ignorance or on purpose. The outcome is always the same though, more and more compromized snakes by the many folds every single breeding year.

I think there are way too many people that focus solely on what cool colors and patterns a snake might have, than to focus on what type of snake it actually IS. This is because not enough people care to learn and read books and appreciate many of the available snake species/subspecies natual history first. The age of the internet allows for people with zero experience to see thousands of different snakes on their monitor at the click of a mouse, then they point at one and say..."ooh!, I want to MAKE some of those" without even knowing or caring much about what they even are. As long as they look "cool", that's all that matters.....

Anyway, enough rambling about something that will never change and only get far worse. I'll just part with a friends quote below from a while back that somes it up rather well........He happens to work with many rare types of mountain kings (L.zonata) aas well as many other types just as I do.

"Very sad indeed that we'd need to justify why breeding like species/ssp is the most appropriate and ethical thing to do for various reasons. It's the shallow few who view reptiles as only aesthetic items and care less about their integrity when reproducing them in captivity.
"When will it end?"


cheers, ~Doug

 

[nmoore601]

Who breeds and raises the scaless corn and ratsnake?

 

[NiklasTyreso]

I think there are way too many people that focus solely on what cool colors and patterns a snake might have, than to focus on what type of snake it actually IS. This is because not enough people care to learn and read books and appreciate many of the available snake species/subspecies natual history first.

You are right, more cornsnake owners should have more knowledge about their snake, how and why they behave as they do.

"Very sad indeed that we'd need to justify why breeding like species/ssp is the most appropriate and ethical thing to do for various reasons. It's the shallow few who view reptiles as only aesthetic items and care less about their integrity when reproducing them in captivity.
"When will it end?"

Nothing wrong with locality breeding, but I do not understand that integrity thing. If humans cared about cornsnake integrity then all cornsnakes should be wild.

We keep cornsnakes in captivity for our satisfaction, not because we respect their integrity.

In the long run:
Survival of the fittest captive cornsnake breed lines are those cornsnake lines that reproduces most because because humans like them most.

Even if captive animals are kept for our sake we have to know enough about them to keep the snakes healthy and without suffering.

When the scaleless corns become more common I just have to have some (if they are healthy). They look great. I think they have come to stay.

Peace
/ Niklas

 

[DMong]

You are right, more cornsnake owners should have more knowledge about their snake, how and why they behave as they do.


Nothing wrong with locality breeding, but I do not understand that integrity thing. If humans cared about cornsnake integrity then all cornsnakes should be wild.

We keep cornsnakes in captivity for our satisfaction, not because we respect their integrity.

In the long run:
Survival of the fittest captive cornsnake breed lines are those cornsnake lines that reproduces most because because humans like them most.

Even if captive animals are kept for our sake we have to know enough about them to keep the snakes healthy and without suffering.

When the scaleless corns become more common I just have to have some (if they are healthy). They look great. I think they have come to stay.

Peace
/ Niklas

Well, the "integrity" thing basically means at least keeping the subspecific integrity intact, and that people shouldn't haphazardly toss together any two snakes they happen to have on hand that aren't the same like subspecies just to make something "different" that is so commonly done now days. If "different" means producing unidentifiable generic mutts then that would be an example of a snake with no subspecific integrity that it would have had if it were not crossed with the other. It has to do with no matter how different they might be, be it a normal wild-type, or genetic mutations(s), that they always at least stay the same subspeices and do not magically change into something else altogether on a given breeding year.

It has nothing to do with wild snakes and captives being introduced into the wild populations (as that certainly isn't good at all). It is much more about having specific subspecies of snakes in the hobby for others to be able to own and enjoy in their collections for many more years to come, rather than going to a show with your grandkid in future years and the deli cup labels simply read..."snake". :shrugs:


~Doug

 

[tomy]

hello everybody,
sorry for my english but i'm french...
I'm a friend of stephane rosselle, the boss of reptilis who have a scaleless corn and mutations. the scaleless corns is really come from cornsnake x emory snake in 10 years ago, as the creamcicle corns...the first scaleless corns arrived in totally fate... If you want more informations, post your questions, i answer of this in possibility to my english and my time! A lot of scaleless project will be arrived in 2012 and we try to send a photo in forum in may /june after birth.

 

[DMong]

hello everybody,
sorry for my english but i'm french...
I'm a friend of stephane rosselle, the boss of reptilis who have a scaleless corn and mutations. the scaleless corns is really come from cornsnake x emory snake in 10 years ago, as the creamcicle corns...the first scaleless corns arrived in totally fate... If you want more informations, post your questions, i answer of this in possibility to my english and my time! A lot of scaleless project will be arrived in 2012 and we try to send a photo in forum in may /june after birth.

Thanks for the information Stephane,..that's very interesting..


~Doug

 

[DISCERN]

Well, the "integrity" thing basically means at least keeping the subspecific integrity intact, and that people shouldn't haphazardly toss together any two snakes they happen to have on hand that aren't the same like subspecies just to make something "different" that is so commonly done now days. If "different" means producing unidentifiable generic mutts then that would be an example of a snake with no subspecific integrity that it would have had if it were not crossed with the other. It has to do with no matter how different they might be, be it a normal wild-type, or genetic mutations(s), that they always at least stay the same subspeices and do not magically change into something else altogether on a given breeding year.

It has nothing to do with wild snakes and captives being introduced into the wild populations (as that certainly isn't good at all). It is much more about having specific subspecies of snakes in the hobby for others to be able to own and enjoy in their collections for many more years to come, rather than going to a show with your grandkid in future years and the deli cup labels simply read..."snake". :shrugs:


~Doug

Exactly Doug!!

To put it really simple and easy:

Hybridization destroys pure species. If all species were bred with different species, there would BE NO MORE pure species.

You would not be able to call anything by a specific species name. No more corn snakes, no more king snakes no more anything. It would be simply just, " snakes ".

The founders of herpetology spent much time preparing our hobby with data to fully illustrate pure species, subspecies, etc. The fact that it can all be changed by people simply not caring anymore about purity, spits in the face of all those that put forth so much time and energy FOR US to enjoy what we now enjoy.

It is not rocket science.

 

[DMong]

Very true Billy!,......the fairly recent advent of the internet is the actual cause of this, but certainly not the blame. As you already know, it goes far beyond only tainting the one clutch of offspring from a single hybrid pairing. From that point on, those babies, and their babies offspring, and so on and so on go on to affect every other snake they ever breed with by the multiplied folds. That's just ONE crossed/hybrid pairing! This is something that most don't really care to acknowledge or understand, but it is the true reality of how it works.


~Doug (the grim reaper and realist)..LOL!

 

[DISCERN]

Very true Billy!,......the fairly recent advent of the internet is the actual cause of this, but certainly not the blame. As you already know, it goes far beyond only tainting the one clutch of offspring from a single hybrid pairing. From that point on, those babies, and their babies offspring, and so on and so on go on to affect every other snake they ever breed with by the multiplied folds. That's just ONE crossed/hybrid pairing! This is something that most don't really care to acknowledge or understand, but it is the true reality of how it works.


~Doug (the grim reaper and realist)..LOL!

Exactly!
So much damage from such selfishness and lack of respect towards the species, the hobby, and others, as a whole.

 

[DMong]

BTW,..let me make this perfectly clear to everyone so they don't misinterpret any of what I have said.......this has absolutely NOTHING whatsoever to do with Don's Palmetto corns in particular!. He is a great person and very honest and trustworthy. I am simply stating this stuff because it applies to all types of snakes in the hobby in general, but especially in regards to colubrids, nothing more nothing less.

I got thinking about this when I saw a few comments made, but when the quote feature isn't used, you never know who the heck is saying what to who!..LOL!


~Doug

 

[NiklasTyreso]

The cornsnake have gone the same way as goldfish, canary birds and domestic cats that all originated in some hybridization. Today their original species is not that important.

The same is true for dogs to. It origined from mainly different asian wolfe subspecies, but that is not important if you like poodles.

Cornsnakes are domesticated animals to. Some have the look of their wild ancestors and some are very different. Nothing wrong with that as long as they are healthy in captivity.

The scaleless corns look great to me, but maybe not to you.

 

[starsevol]

Exactly Doug!!

To put it really simple and easy:

Hybridization destroys pure species. If all species were bred with different species, there would BE NO MORE pure species.

You would not be able to call anything by a specific species name. No more corn snakes, no more king snakes no more anything. It would be simply just, " snakes ".

The founders of herpetology spent much time preparing our hobby with data to fully illustrate pure species, subspecies, etc. The fact that it can all be changed by people simply not caring anymore about purity, spits in the face of all those that put forth so much time and energy FOR US to enjoy what we now enjoy.

It is not rocket science.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!
These are exactly my feelings, although I had trouble putting it into words. One night my feelings about this destruction of my favorite species, a very strong screwdriver, and my poor judgement earned me a permaban from ks.com. They didn't like what I had to say. But I stand by it (whatever I said that night lol). I shudder inside everytime I see a Jungle corn, or a sinacorn, or a creamsicle corn....they AREN'T corns, and never will be again......

 

[Carinata]

If we're talking about hybridization, we have to consider a lot of current morphs may not be pure corn. The Cinder for instance, the first time I actually got to see and feel a cinder I was like "This can't be a Cornsnake.". Theire body shape is just not right. A lot of morphs may be intergrades or hybrids, but I feel like as long as the breeder is transparent and they stay in a captive population it's fine.

 

[GMR_TFH]

purity, genuine, authentic?

I totally agree that "purity" is a very relative term and not accurate at all. Animals are nothing similar to a "pure" chemical manufactured in a lab or factory. I think the term authentic, genuine, or un-compromised is a more accurate term than "pure", as every single type of snake on this planet has changed and evolved over countless millenia at different rates due to different geological, biological and environmental factors to arrive at the specific entities they are today. However in my opinion the true hybrid issue has absolutely nothing to do with snakes going back out into the wild. In my opinion it has far more to do with people being able to own and enjoy "authentic" types of species or subspecies in their collections across the country, and to know and have confidence that's what they actually are. Be it a normal wild phenotype or genetic morph. Fact is unless a cross or hybrid is VERY distinct and noticeable, they later on are called whatever they happen to best represent at any time over the course of being bred and exchanging hands. This is the true dynamics of how the hobby really works. All that nonsense you here about Jo-blow "honestly" representing his crosses means NOTHING once those snakes leave the table. From then on as time goes by and the people forget what they were told about the snakes, lose or don't keep or care about records, etc.. they simply get called whatever someone happens to "think" they probably are at any given point. This is what "actually" happens, because I see it countless times every single day. Knowing what I know about meristic science and snake identification over many years, a good percentage of people in this hobby as a whole wanting to be breeders now days couldn't hardly tell a Burmese python from a Ringneck to be honest, but yet they want to be a breeder because they see so many others dong it and selling snakes.. :shrugs:

This hybrid scaleless thing here is just one TINY facet of what I am really referring to. In todays hobby more and more people are producing countless crosses and hybrids at a ridiculous rate that only end up tainting the authenticity of many other genuine types of snakes that are still out there in collections.

This happens from ignorance of simply not knowing the difference and from people doing it on purpose, but the outcome will always be the same regardless.....more unknown and questionable crosses to deal with ou in the hobby mainstream. This really won't affect me so much, because I have countless sources to get just about any kind of snake I choose to. But for the casual hobbyist, or the not very experienced keeper/breeder, they often tend to acquire lots of crossed or hybridized stuff from random sources and go by what someone else labeled them as and breed more of these snakes out of either ignorance or on purpose. The outcome is always the same though, more and more compromized snakes by the many folds every single breeding year.

I think there are way too many people that focus solely on what cool colors and patterns a snake might have, than to focus on what type of snake it actually IS. This is because not enough people care to learn and read books and appreciate many of the available snake species/subspecies natual history first. The age of the internet allows for people with zero experience to see thousands of different snakes on their monitor at the click of a mouse, then they point at one and say..."ooh!, I want to MAKE some of those" without even knowing or caring much about what they even are. As long as they look "cool", that's all that matters.....

Anyway, enough rambling about something that will never change and only get far worse. I'll just part with a friends quote below from a while back that somes it up rather well........He happens to work with many rare types of mountain kings (L.zonata) aas well as many other types just as I do.

"Very sad indeed that we'd need to justify why breeding like species/ssp is the most appropriate and ethical thing to do for various reasons. It's the shallow few who view reptiles as only aesthetic items and care less about their integrity when reproducing them in captivity.
"When will it end?"


cheers, ~Doug

Here's the thing Doug. There is even in nature no such thing as a pure corn breed! In mature even corn snakes breed with other compatible species. Including the Texas Rat Snake! So why should humans do any different? I've read many of your rants about other morphs that you believe to be so called hybrids, including your conversation that the palmetto's were not pure and I've seen where you were put in your place on that subject by one of the original people involved with the first palmettos discovered in the wild, even though now you're saying you believe Don to be an honest man of integrity, or whatever it was exactly that you said. Yes, I was a fly on the wall, so to speak, with that conversation. As for the purity aspect of the corn snake, here's the thing, let's take dogs for an example here. If us as humans hadn't interfered, all we would have today would be whatever evolution would have done to the wolves that became domesticated, and who's to say what that would have been, however, as it is, today we have thousands of breeds that adorn our porches, beds, living rooms or wherever else we may have our dogs. You're say now, what the people of the past or even the people of today are saying now about creating new breeds. There are breeds yes, that have been around for thousands of years like the pharaoh hounds or the Basenjis, but we also have the ones that are still fighting for respect from organizations such as the AKC, like the Jack Russell. There have been people like you around for thousands of years saying don't do this, our don't do that. The thing is, there are people on both sides of the fence for as long as there have been humans. The only difference is, this is a new hobby in relation to time! You're neither judge nor jury, only spectator. As we all are! It's not anybody's place to say that this is right or it's wrong, only that you don't like it and if you don't, then don't buy what you believe to be a "fake" corn snake. However, to call into speculation that one morph or another is not an "authentic" corn snake, just because you don't think it is, is disrespectful of that person! Especially when to claim to "respect" that person! BTW, does the Facebook conversation come back you as you read this post?