snakechaarmer
}:{snakechaarmer}:{
Hi all -
I joined here a few weeks ago with the intention of posting all about this situation here, just now able to sit down and do it. I originally posted this on Fauna Classifieds' Corn Snake Forum and have had a very limited response, so I was referred over here.
I will condense the post with dated additions. Any help, experience, suggestions at this point would be greatly appreciated. If the fungal culture comes back negative, I am probably going to have to euthanize my snakes.
9-6-2010
My vet and I have been battling this together for a while and I figured I would post here and see if anyone else had any clue what might be going on.
First scenario is my 6 year old corn snake female, Sharra. Sharra was perfectly healthy, laid eggs two years in a row with no problems. I moved to a new home and a few months afterward I noticed that Sharra started sneezing. The first thing I did was pull her water dish and move her to a permanent heat mat for a few days. That seemed to make the "sneezes" go away for about a week before they came back...This goes back and forth a few times before I take her to the vet and get a Rx for Baytril. We go through the whole regime of Baytril, she seems better - She has a voracious appetite, there's no wheezing or open mouthed breathing, just some sniffles. She seems better. A few weeks after the Baytril, I hear sneezes again? I take her back to the vet and he does a bacterial culture on her sputum/mouth area. It comes back completely clean, and all other tests are normal. He is not solely a reptile vet, but he is baffled but he thinks maybe she has some kind of sinus problem or is allergic to aspen, and to keep her strictly on newspaper. I have been doing so. The snake is still sneezing, but is otherwise fine. Can snakes have sinus problems!?
About 2 weeks before we took Sharra in for a culture, I had two other corn snakes get sick simultaneously, Argent and Adore. They were no where near Sharra, and as it turns out Sharra apparently is "healthy with sinus problems", there were no other sick snakes in the room, so both of them get very sick simultaneously and it's very weird. Both Argent and Adore are wheezing, sneezing, open gaping mouths, the whole 9 yards. However they are still eating voraciously. I put them on full time heat pads, switch to paper towel bedding, clean it every other day, and start a regime of Baytril. I figured this time I knew for certain it was a Respiratory infection due to all the classic symptoms, so we did not do a bacterial culture.
It's my understanding that generally when someone is sick, the doctor gives you antibiotics. They prescribe you a full regiment of antibiotics, but you normally feel better after the first two treatments, right? Well..Both Argent and Adore have today had their full treatment plan of Baytril (one injection every 5 days), and they are both still wheezing, sneezing, and gaping mouths at me. They're both still eating.
I am going to take one or both in for a culture Wednesday, but I have no idea what could really be the problem here? They are on paper towels. They are at about 85-90 degrees. They have a small water bowl. They're eating. They've gotten their injections. I put electrolytes in their water as well. I cannot even figure out how they got sick to begin with. I have always kind of felt like Baytril would do the job. My vet is NOT a reptile specialist and he kind of goes with what I suggest that I've been told from reptile vets that i know in other states or friends with more experience, so I'm just wondering if anyone has any suggestions on what else I could possibly be doing to help or what I'm doing wrong. I just really don't want things to get worse and I just can't figure out why they aren't better at this point.
9-17-2010
Even though nobody has responded to this thread, I thought I would kind of update it for my own general purposes.
All three of the snakes again had bacterial and fungal cultures. All three of the bacterial cultures came back negative. The lab is taking SO long on the results of the fungal culture, I am tempted to do it myself and take it into my own lab and do my own diagnostics to see if I can find any results. I'm just trying to be patient.
If it's not fungal, that leaves only one other probability, and I really don't even want to think about it.
I am seriously at a loss as to what is going on with these snakes. On iHerp people suggested mold, nearby factories/exhaust, aspen stuck in a throat, etc etc...All of these are great ideas but none are applicable. I live in the middle of nowhere, and I had the house checked for mold pre-purchase. The only mold I can think of is maybe some Aspen in their cages got water on it from them going in and out of a water dish or something and tiny mold being on it that I just didn't see. But if that was the case I'd think everybody would be sick?
All of these snakes are kept on newspaper, are taken out of enclosure to be fed, and they were all kept without issues in the same room for over a year (With the exception of Sharra, about 8 months in starting to sneeze). What I can't figure out is how the first snake, Sharra, seemed to fluctuate in her condition so heavily, and had nothing to do with the other two snakes, and then suddenly the other two who also have nothing to do with each other, get sick simultaneously. There were no new additions, nothing in the environment changed, I'm anal retentive about hand washing. I just can't figure it out.
I have been a nervous, stressed wreck about all of this. All I can think about is that it could be something viral and it's only affecting my corn snakes. I have no idea where it even could have come from. This is all just so confusing. I know it's silly to stress until the results come back but it's been two weeks and so far, Sharra has gotten worse, Adore has gotten better, and Argent has gotten EXTREMELY worse. I'm just at a loss as to what to do and I feel so terrible and helpless about the whole situation. Basically all I'm doing at this point is bleaching their cages every 3-4 days, offering food once a week, and keeping them on heat on the other side of the house from the other snakes. I have also done another de-worming treatment with a mixture of medications from the vet.
I hate waiting.
9-20-2010
I have moved them to another room, on several layers of newspaper, in plastic cages with the colored vented tops, with a underbelly temp of 88-95 gradient.
9-21-2010
Originally Posted by hhmoore
"There are a couple of things that come to mind, one being lungworm. Have you had a fecal done? "
Thank you both for this suggestion. I will be speaking to my vet about this possibility, as well as a WBC test. Can you determine lungworm from a normal fecal test, or is there something special required? We actually did all of the snakes with a double treatment of fenbendazole and micanazole and one other dewormer in liquid form last friday. I wonder if it is a lung parasite, if that will do the trick? Or if it would show up in a fecal now that they've had a de-worming treatment? I wonder if this is the cause if they would require another de-worming treatment?
The fungal culture is still not back yet, and I've been told that it can take another 3+ weeks to get any results back. In the meantime, the male, Argent, is getting worse. The two females are staying about the same.
I sincerely hope it's fungal or parasitical in nature. I told the vet that the male had worsened and mentioned the treatment from Dr. Rossi's book concerning fungal pneumonias, and he agreed we should start it...
So I ordered a nebulizer, and as soon as it gets here, i'll be starting nebulizing treatment of Amphoceterin B on all of the snakes. I would rather do something than nothing, especially since Argent is getting worse.
Thanks both of you for your replies. I'll keep posting here.
9-27-2010
Wanted to do a small update.
The fungal cultures still are not back yet. The snakes have not gotten any better or any worse.
The vet tried getting phone consults with 2 other reptile vets and it's been 2 weeks and neither have returned his phone call.
I bought a nebulizer, the vet went ahead and gave me the prescription for Amphoceterin B, I had to special order it, and I did one nebulizing treatment of 1cc to 150cc saline on each snake today.
It was a nightmare and extremely frustrating but hopefully it will do some good.
9-29-2010
No, the fungal cultures did not come back, we opted to go ahead and initiate treatment because the cultures take 6+ weeks, apparently, and they were worsening.
However, after the first treatment, one of the snake's has worsened so much overnight, I'm not sure it's such a good idea anymore.
After Sharra, the oldest female, had the first breathing treatment of the Amphotericin B, the next day she literally had so much fluid buildup and was wheezing so badly I could see the fluid buildup in her throat and a little behind. I actually tried to sample some of it to take to the lab but she pushed it back down and i couldn't get it out.
I'm also not sure it's a good idea because I feel like the drug is making ME ill because of the constant required interference with the nebulizer.
And, my vet today pretty much told me he was giving up. Nobody will call him back for a consult.
So, I'm extremely depressed and have a migraine and have to figure out what I am going to do next.
10-08-2010
Small update:
Have been speaking with my dear, good friend Tom Harbin, DVM, since my vet here in Gainesville is at a loss and has pretty much given up. We came to this decision:
I stopped the nebulizer treatments on the three corn snakes because:
1) The medicine was making me sick.
2) The medicine was making Sharra almost keel over and die.
3) The fungal culture STILL has not returned and I believe the sample will prove inadequate so I will not continue to harm myself and the snakes with the treatment until I have something more definitive.
Tom Harbin suggested to me going back to the Baytril, so that's what I've been doing. Every 3 days, I have been injecting .10cc of Baytril into a small fuzzy mouse. They are all still eating with no problems. I've done this 4 times, and none of them are showing any improvement.
If and when the fungal culture comes back, if it's negative, perhaps I'll speak to the vet about combining the Baytril with another antibiotic and perhaps a steroid, and inject those into the fuzzy as well to see if that maybe helps? I am at a total loss here.
I've attempted to contact Dr. Elliot Jacobsen via e-mail and phone, but I don't know if he's just not getting my messages or if he's on vacation or something. Dr. Rossi still has not returned my vet's phone call, neither has Dr. Stahl.
Grr, Argh.
10-8-2010
Negative bacterial cultures - the fungal still has not come back.
We did do fecal samples on all 3 snakes - Results as follows:
Adore - Normal
Sharra - An egg of something that 3 vets at the clinic had no idea what it was/could not identify
Argent - Egg of same thing that Sharra had, as well as something apparently "mite-like" in the feces - My snakes don't have mites, so I have no idea what on earth this could be.
We got further fecal samples on Sharra and Argent and sent them off to another lab with a veterinary pathologist. Stilll awaiting results.
10-19-2010
Yesterday was week 6 on the fungal cultures and still no results.
They've had 6 treatments of .10cc injected fuzzy mice, no improvements.
The symptoms seem to literally be rotating between all of the snakes. It is the most bizzare thing I've ever seen -
Last week, Argent seemed like he was on death's door. I went in there, he was coiled in a ball, he had his head tilted at a weird angle with his mouth gaping open with drool coming out. I thought he was dead. I tapped on the cage and he was like "What, what? I'm awake". The same day, Adore, the youngest, seemed perfectly fine with a few minor sniffles here and there. No issues at all.
This week, it's completely opposite. Argent seems TOTALLY fine, except a few sniffles. Now Adore seems miserable and is wheezing/popping like crazy.
Sharra seems to fluctuate weekly as well. Some weeks I think she's better, then the next week it's back to popping/wheezing/sneezing...But she is no where NEAR as bad as she was the 2-3 days after the Amphotericin treatment.
I joined here a few weeks ago with the intention of posting all about this situation here, just now able to sit down and do it. I originally posted this on Fauna Classifieds' Corn Snake Forum and have had a very limited response, so I was referred over here.
I will condense the post with dated additions. Any help, experience, suggestions at this point would be greatly appreciated. If the fungal culture comes back negative, I am probably going to have to euthanize my snakes.
9-6-2010
My vet and I have been battling this together for a while and I figured I would post here and see if anyone else had any clue what might be going on.
First scenario is my 6 year old corn snake female, Sharra. Sharra was perfectly healthy, laid eggs two years in a row with no problems. I moved to a new home and a few months afterward I noticed that Sharra started sneezing. The first thing I did was pull her water dish and move her to a permanent heat mat for a few days. That seemed to make the "sneezes" go away for about a week before they came back...This goes back and forth a few times before I take her to the vet and get a Rx for Baytril. We go through the whole regime of Baytril, she seems better - She has a voracious appetite, there's no wheezing or open mouthed breathing, just some sniffles. She seems better. A few weeks after the Baytril, I hear sneezes again? I take her back to the vet and he does a bacterial culture on her sputum/mouth area. It comes back completely clean, and all other tests are normal. He is not solely a reptile vet, but he is baffled but he thinks maybe she has some kind of sinus problem or is allergic to aspen, and to keep her strictly on newspaper. I have been doing so. The snake is still sneezing, but is otherwise fine. Can snakes have sinus problems!?
About 2 weeks before we took Sharra in for a culture, I had two other corn snakes get sick simultaneously, Argent and Adore. They were no where near Sharra, and as it turns out Sharra apparently is "healthy with sinus problems", there were no other sick snakes in the room, so both of them get very sick simultaneously and it's very weird. Both Argent and Adore are wheezing, sneezing, open gaping mouths, the whole 9 yards. However they are still eating voraciously. I put them on full time heat pads, switch to paper towel bedding, clean it every other day, and start a regime of Baytril. I figured this time I knew for certain it was a Respiratory infection due to all the classic symptoms, so we did not do a bacterial culture.
It's my understanding that generally when someone is sick, the doctor gives you antibiotics. They prescribe you a full regiment of antibiotics, but you normally feel better after the first two treatments, right? Well..Both Argent and Adore have today had their full treatment plan of Baytril (one injection every 5 days), and they are both still wheezing, sneezing, and gaping mouths at me. They're both still eating.
I am going to take one or both in for a culture Wednesday, but I have no idea what could really be the problem here? They are on paper towels. They are at about 85-90 degrees. They have a small water bowl. They're eating. They've gotten their injections. I put electrolytes in their water as well. I cannot even figure out how they got sick to begin with. I have always kind of felt like Baytril would do the job. My vet is NOT a reptile specialist and he kind of goes with what I suggest that I've been told from reptile vets that i know in other states or friends with more experience, so I'm just wondering if anyone has any suggestions on what else I could possibly be doing to help or what I'm doing wrong. I just really don't want things to get worse and I just can't figure out why they aren't better at this point.
9-17-2010
Even though nobody has responded to this thread, I thought I would kind of update it for my own general purposes.
All three of the snakes again had bacterial and fungal cultures. All three of the bacterial cultures came back negative. The lab is taking SO long on the results of the fungal culture, I am tempted to do it myself and take it into my own lab and do my own diagnostics to see if I can find any results. I'm just trying to be patient.
If it's not fungal, that leaves only one other probability, and I really don't even want to think about it.
I am seriously at a loss as to what is going on with these snakes. On iHerp people suggested mold, nearby factories/exhaust, aspen stuck in a throat, etc etc...All of these are great ideas but none are applicable. I live in the middle of nowhere, and I had the house checked for mold pre-purchase. The only mold I can think of is maybe some Aspen in their cages got water on it from them going in and out of a water dish or something and tiny mold being on it that I just didn't see. But if that was the case I'd think everybody would be sick?
All of these snakes are kept on newspaper, are taken out of enclosure to be fed, and they were all kept without issues in the same room for over a year (With the exception of Sharra, about 8 months in starting to sneeze). What I can't figure out is how the first snake, Sharra, seemed to fluctuate in her condition so heavily, and had nothing to do with the other two snakes, and then suddenly the other two who also have nothing to do with each other, get sick simultaneously. There were no new additions, nothing in the environment changed, I'm anal retentive about hand washing. I just can't figure it out.
I have been a nervous, stressed wreck about all of this. All I can think about is that it could be something viral and it's only affecting my corn snakes. I have no idea where it even could have come from. This is all just so confusing. I know it's silly to stress until the results come back but it's been two weeks and so far, Sharra has gotten worse, Adore has gotten better, and Argent has gotten EXTREMELY worse. I'm just at a loss as to what to do and I feel so terrible and helpless about the whole situation. Basically all I'm doing at this point is bleaching their cages every 3-4 days, offering food once a week, and keeping them on heat on the other side of the house from the other snakes. I have also done another de-worming treatment with a mixture of medications from the vet.
I hate waiting.
9-20-2010
I have moved them to another room, on several layers of newspaper, in plastic cages with the colored vented tops, with a underbelly temp of 88-95 gradient.
9-21-2010
Originally Posted by hhmoore
"There are a couple of things that come to mind, one being lungworm. Have you had a fecal done? "
Thank you both for this suggestion. I will be speaking to my vet about this possibility, as well as a WBC test. Can you determine lungworm from a normal fecal test, or is there something special required? We actually did all of the snakes with a double treatment of fenbendazole and micanazole and one other dewormer in liquid form last friday. I wonder if it is a lung parasite, if that will do the trick? Or if it would show up in a fecal now that they've had a de-worming treatment? I wonder if this is the cause if they would require another de-worming treatment?
The fungal culture is still not back yet, and I've been told that it can take another 3+ weeks to get any results back. In the meantime, the male, Argent, is getting worse. The two females are staying about the same.
I sincerely hope it's fungal or parasitical in nature. I told the vet that the male had worsened and mentioned the treatment from Dr. Rossi's book concerning fungal pneumonias, and he agreed we should start it...
So I ordered a nebulizer, and as soon as it gets here, i'll be starting nebulizing treatment of Amphoceterin B on all of the snakes. I would rather do something than nothing, especially since Argent is getting worse.
Thanks both of you for your replies. I'll keep posting here.
9-27-2010
Wanted to do a small update.
The fungal cultures still are not back yet. The snakes have not gotten any better or any worse.
The vet tried getting phone consults with 2 other reptile vets and it's been 2 weeks and neither have returned his phone call.
I bought a nebulizer, the vet went ahead and gave me the prescription for Amphoceterin B, I had to special order it, and I did one nebulizing treatment of 1cc to 150cc saline on each snake today.
It was a nightmare and extremely frustrating but hopefully it will do some good.
9-29-2010
No, the fungal cultures did not come back, we opted to go ahead and initiate treatment because the cultures take 6+ weeks, apparently, and they were worsening.
However, after the first treatment, one of the snake's has worsened so much overnight, I'm not sure it's such a good idea anymore.
After Sharra, the oldest female, had the first breathing treatment of the Amphotericin B, the next day she literally had so much fluid buildup and was wheezing so badly I could see the fluid buildup in her throat and a little behind. I actually tried to sample some of it to take to the lab but she pushed it back down and i couldn't get it out.
I'm also not sure it's a good idea because I feel like the drug is making ME ill because of the constant required interference with the nebulizer.
And, my vet today pretty much told me he was giving up. Nobody will call him back for a consult.
So, I'm extremely depressed and have a migraine and have to figure out what I am going to do next.
10-08-2010
Small update:
Have been speaking with my dear, good friend Tom Harbin, DVM, since my vet here in Gainesville is at a loss and has pretty much given up. We came to this decision:
I stopped the nebulizer treatments on the three corn snakes because:
1) The medicine was making me sick.
2) The medicine was making Sharra almost keel over and die.
3) The fungal culture STILL has not returned and I believe the sample will prove inadequate so I will not continue to harm myself and the snakes with the treatment until I have something more definitive.
Tom Harbin suggested to me going back to the Baytril, so that's what I've been doing. Every 3 days, I have been injecting .10cc of Baytril into a small fuzzy mouse. They are all still eating with no problems. I've done this 4 times, and none of them are showing any improvement.
If and when the fungal culture comes back, if it's negative, perhaps I'll speak to the vet about combining the Baytril with another antibiotic and perhaps a steroid, and inject those into the fuzzy as well to see if that maybe helps? I am at a total loss here.
I've attempted to contact Dr. Elliot Jacobsen via e-mail and phone, but I don't know if he's just not getting my messages or if he's on vacation or something. Dr. Rossi still has not returned my vet's phone call, neither has Dr. Stahl.
Grr, Argh.
10-8-2010
Negative bacterial cultures - the fungal still has not come back.
We did do fecal samples on all 3 snakes - Results as follows:
Adore - Normal
Sharra - An egg of something that 3 vets at the clinic had no idea what it was/could not identify
Argent - Egg of same thing that Sharra had, as well as something apparently "mite-like" in the feces - My snakes don't have mites, so I have no idea what on earth this could be.
We got further fecal samples on Sharra and Argent and sent them off to another lab with a veterinary pathologist. Stilll awaiting results.
10-19-2010
Yesterday was week 6 on the fungal cultures and still no results.
They've had 6 treatments of .10cc injected fuzzy mice, no improvements.
The symptoms seem to literally be rotating between all of the snakes. It is the most bizzare thing I've ever seen -
Last week, Argent seemed like he was on death's door. I went in there, he was coiled in a ball, he had his head tilted at a weird angle with his mouth gaping open with drool coming out. I thought he was dead. I tapped on the cage and he was like "What, what? I'm awake". The same day, Adore, the youngest, seemed perfectly fine with a few minor sniffles here and there. No issues at all.
This week, it's completely opposite. Argent seems TOTALLY fine, except a few sniffles. Now Adore seems miserable and is wheezing/popping like crazy.
Sharra seems to fluctuate weekly as well. Some weeks I think she's better, then the next week it's back to popping/wheezing/sneezing...But she is no where NEAR as bad as she was the 2-3 days after the Amphotericin treatment.
