Snakes have feelings too!

[AliCat37]

Yes, they probably have feelings/emotions but probably not verbal "I am" thoughts.
The feelings are triggered from external stimuli, like mice or or other sexy snakes.
They might also feel hunger and act/hunt as a result of that internal stimuli.

They do have sensory sensations, they see and register temperature and pain and react to such stimuli.
Snakes have instincts that tell them how to react on sensory stimuli, but not verbal or cognitive ability to reason logically.

Where did I say they have verbal usage and logic??? You just complicated exactly what I said.

 

[NH93]

Just wanted to throw out that some people (scientists) can prove that other animals, like dogs and cats, also cannot feel "love"; that it is a human condition. However, when you look at "love" in the human brain, certain chemicals are released that other animals (including dogs, cats, and snakes) also have in their brains. I would conclude that the part of the brain in humans that lights up under examination when thinking about things such as love - which actually coincides with attachment, safety, attraction, and OBSESSION feelings - could also be stimulated in snakes. Especially the obsession part. I would link that to hunting, shelter/comfort, need for water, etc.
So, theoretically, could animals (and snakes) "love"? Maybe not in the way humans do, but I think they can look for things that make them feel positively. I also personally do not believe, based on evidence (or lack thereof) that we even really know what "love" is, or where it "comes from".
I hope that made sense. I'm not asking anyone to agree, but I just thought I'd throw some more random knowledge in. I also do not currently have the sources to back up my information, but I have gathered it from various courses in human sexuality and a few journals on animal brain development. I only took the broad points that I remembered, because as with anything - scientific or not - we should all think critically of what we read.

 

[The Cat]

My dog and cat can totally love. I have seen proof.

I guess if you want your snake to feel love, it will in your eyes

 

[NH93]

I'm not saying dogs and cats can't love, but the same people who say snakes cannot also say dogs/cats cannot. Dogs/cats can learn, but apparently cannot "love" like humans do.
And how do you prove love? You feed your pets, so they know you give them food, and protection. That might not be love. It might be. It might not matter whether you feed them, some pets still like you.
See where I'm going with this?
I think if people can feel the love of other pets (regardless of what it actually is to them), why not snakes? I don't think my snakes love me - and I have thought that my other pets did love me, or at least really liked me - but I do believe that snakes have senses which translate to feelings, even simply. They may be driven by instinct, but so are a lot of things.
Really cool article came out in a MacLean's magazine (which, if you are in the states, is a Canadian scientific journal of sorts, for the public). It talked about this woman doing various studies on plants... and guess what. She says they can think.
Anyone interested should definitely look it up!

http://www2.macleans.ca/2013/09/16/shh-the-plants-are-thinking/

So, if plants can think, I believe snakes can think. If snakes can think, maybe they can feel.

Very interesting though, regardless of your opinion

 

[The Cat]

I love this thread.

I am a believer. I know snakes aren't exactly the most lovable seeming animals, but they trust us, right? I am very unsure about love, because they can't really express it.

Like a lot of people say on some threads, some snakes prefer certain people. And maybe they do enjoy handling, and not just tolerate it. They are curious and handling is probably like a vacation from their viv to them. We will never really know, I guess. We can't read their minds.

If any one else is not really supporting my opinion, you're probably right, but I guess it's the owner. Snakes have neutral faces, so we can easily project emotions onto them.

 

[NH93]

Interesting point about trust!
I'm not sure how I feel about it, but I know that you should never completely trust a snake (or so I've heard). I also don't know if snakes can trust, but I think they can learn certain things.
For example, Sydney used to wind around my arm like a bracelet, and hook her tail on my fingers. She was so scared of falling - which I understand. However, lately she doesn't do that anymore. She doesn't even try to grab onto me. She just slithers up my arm, 4 feet in the air without a care! She has slipped several times, but I catch her every single time. I don't know if she's learned that I will catch her so she doesn't need to worry, or if she doesn't care, or if somewhere deep down she actually remembers and knows she won't fall. It's interesting to see, nonetheless!

 

[codymi]

trust me, plants do not think. all they do is release certain chemicals in light of certain stimuli. it's a cellular/environmental response and has nothing to do with any kind of intelligence. people will believe what they want, no matter what data is presented, whether it's animals feeling love, plants thinking or the existence of a higher power. i guess, draw your own conclusions based on what you observe, but don't be surprised if someone disagrees with you or laughs in your face.

 

[HVani]

'm not saying dogs and cats can't love, but the same people who say snakes cannot also say dogs/cats cannot. Dogs/cats can learn, but apparently cannot "love" like humans do.

That's not true at all. I say snakes can't feel love but dogs for sure do. Animals that form social bonds in nature are more prone to forming bonds with people. It's in their genetic make up. An can be measured through studies of their brain. It may not be as complex as humans but it is there.

Snakes and most other reptiles don't even have the parts of the brain that are used for emotions.

Snakes don't even bond with one another I see no reason why they would bond with people.

trust me, plants do not think. all they do is release certain chemicals in light of certain stimuli. it's a cellular/environmental response and has nothing to do with any kind of intelligence. people will believe what they want, no matter what data is presented, whether it's animals feeling love, plants thinking or the existence of a higher power. i guess, draw your own conclusions based on what you observe, but don't be surprised if someone disagrees with you or laughs in your face.

Totally agree

 

[RobbiesCornField]

I'm not saying dogs and cats can't love, but the same people who say snakes cannot also say dogs/cats cannot. Dogs/cats can learn, but apparently cannot "love" like humans do.

Snakes cannot love, but I know that dogs can (or at least some diluted version of it). Petting a dog releases a chemical in both animals (us and the dog) called "oxytocin". This is the same chemical that is released in such mass quantities during childbirth that instantly bonds the mother with her baby. It is the main source for the feeling of love in humans, and is why humans feel such a strong bond with animals.

Snakes do not have oxytocin in their neural systems, and are therefore incapable of feeling "love" as we know it.


EDIT: Absence of oxytocin in the central nervous system of the snake Bothrops jararaca.

 

[The Cat]

Love is more than a chemical. I believe that all animals can feel it, but all can't express it.

Wow. I sound really deep.

 

[RobbiesCornField]

Love is more than a chemical. I believe that all animals can feel it, but all can't express it.

Wow. I sound really deep.

In humans, yes. In animals with more limited brain power... not so much. That's just my opinion. You're more than welcome to believe whatever you want.

 

[NH93]

Love is more than a chemical. I believe that all animals can feel it, but all can't express it.

Wow. I sound really deep.

That's what I was getting at. Oxytocin may be associated with feelings of love, but it is not love. There is a differentiation that must be made, otherwise everything would be down to chemicals and instincts - including with humans - and there would be no rhyme or reason for anything; social or otherwise.
I was expressing my opinion earlier, and although people may and will disagree, that is no reason to attack someone (not saying anyone did, and I am not offended either way).
I believe snakes can absolutely think, but that is my opinion based on what I've witness.
I also am not a scientist, nor am I studying snakes brains.

(I am, however, quite knowledgable about such things as "love" as we know it, relationships, and sexualities, and will not simply believe someone when they say "trust me", with regards to this subject. As a background, I major in Sexualities, Marriages, and Families at the University of Waterloo in Ontario. Not trying to be boasty, I just wanted to back up my opinion with some frame of reference, so no one gets the idea that I throwing nonsensical nonsense out there.)

 

[The Cat]

I know it's all opinions here, and there's no way we'll ever know for sure unless we somehow scan their minds. It doesn't really matter if they love or not. It's not like your snakes gonna hug you.

NH93- I agree with your last post. That pretty much sums up this whole debate, to me at least. Your post like agrees with everyone.

 

[RobbiesCornField]

I know it's all opinions here, and there's no way we'll ever know for sure unless we somehow scan their minds. It doesn't really matter if they love or not. It's not like your snakes gonna hug you.

NH93- I agree with your last post. That pretty much sums up this whole debate, to me at least. Your post like agrees with everyone.

Except me. But that's because I'm a cantankerous, curmudgeonly goat. :grin01:

I just find it illogical to apply concepts that work with a human brain to one with far less functions (i.e. snakes). Snakes do not have the mental capacity for love, and most snakes lack even the most basic form of love (maternal/paternal instincts). So at this point, I'm going to agree to disagree, and bow out.

 

[NH93]

That's a fair point - and I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you Robbie(sCornField). I just like to make people think not even change their minds, but open them.
Alas, still an interesting thread!

 

[The Cat]

Mr. Robbie's Corn Field--

I should have typed more carefully.

And don't call yourself that. It's okay to disagree. I do it all the time.

And you probably look nothing like a goat.

 

[Alicia P]

Snakes do not form relationships with other snakes in the wild, they do not even care for their own young. Why would they "love" a human but not another snake? I agree that snakes do like certain people better than others, but that probably comes down to them learning who brings dinner or even body chemistry. I think we as people feel the need to project our emotions, because we want and need to feel loved.

 

[sleater]

I posted this on iHerp, but I'll share it here too, since this thread is ongoing:

Snakes have brains that evolved quite differently from ours. Your nice big neocortex that does all your fancy higher-level processing? Snakes don't have that.

Actually, parrots don't even have one either. Birds never evolved a neocortex. You'd think that might limit their cognitive abilities, right? How are parrots experiencing jealousy without the brain structures we use to experience it? How do they manage to have social lives? And how the heck do magpies pass the self-recognition mirror test without a neocortex to support self-awareness?

Meanwhile, the other archosaur lineage, crocodilians, has managed to include a cerebral cortex in their tiny, tiny brains. Crocodilians do in fact display social behaviors, despite being toothy ancient-looking reptiles. Their brains are ridiculously small compared to their body size, but they manage to do so much.

Birds and reptiles do not have brains like ours. They do not have mammal-like brains. Does this mean they're incabable of higher level processing? Not necessarily. They do have brain structures homologous to mammalian structures. Their brains are not primitive, they simply have a different way of getting things done.

I wouldn't argue that snakes have warm fuzzy mammal emotions. They're not mammals. It's unscientific, though, to assume they couldn't possibly have emotions because they don't have the brains of social animals. Snakes aren't social in a mammalian way, but what the heck is up with Thamnophis? Why are people studying the social lives of rattlesnakes? Their brains may be tiny and unmammalian, but it's unfair to say they're unfeeling instinct-driven machines because of that. We don't actually know.

If the whole self-aware but neocortexless magpie fiasco is any indication, we are still learning how non-mammal brains work.

I think my snakes are pretty dumb and oblivious sometimes, but I do not assume to know what exactly is going on in their heads.

And re: oxytocin. Oxytocin was at some point assumed to be a mammalian chemical. Other vertebrates evolved with their own homologous chemicals. The abstract to the article Robbie posted noted that they detected two of these in Bothrops jararaca: vasotocin and mesotocin. I have access to the full article, but sharing the whole thing might get me in trouble. I'll share an excerpt though, which explains the purpose of this research:

The evidence of the presence of OXT [oxytocin] in reptiles is mixed. Follett (1967) and Pickering (1967) have reported the existence of OXT in hypophysial extracts of two snakes, Naja naja and Tropidonotus natrix, and three turtle species, Chelonia mydas, Lepidochelys kempi and Careta sp. A more recent immunohistochemical study by Perez-Figares et al. (1995) also reports that in addition to MST [mesotocin] and AVT [vasotocin], an OXT-like peptide exists in the hypothalamo-hypophysial system of the snake Natrix maura (Colubridae) and the turtle Mauremys caspica. In contrast, Acher et al. (1969) tried to isolate OXT from the hypophysis of three snake species, the cobra N. naja (Elapidae), the rat snake Elaphe quadrivirgata (Colubridae) and the viper Vipera aspis (Viperidae), but failed.

So, no Bothrops jararaca don't appear to have oxytocin, but other snakes do.

 

[Iulia]

how can you say for sure your cat or dog 'loves' you

my cat runs to the drive when she hears my car, she comes and hangs out in the garden when I'm having a coffee there, she sleeps on the bed (if its cold and she feels like it lol) she follows me around when I am out for a walk, she chases other cats if I pet any, she purrs if I pick her up and cuddle her, but is that LOVE???

 

[RobbiesCornField]

I posted this on iHerp, but I'll share it here too, since this thread is ongoing:





And re: oxytocin. Oxytocin was at some point assumed to be a mammalian chemical. Other vertebrates evolved with their own homologous chemicals. The abstract to the article Robbie posted noted that they detected two of these in Bothrops jararaca: vasotocin and mesotocin. I have access to the full article, but sharing the whole thing might get me in trouble. I'll share an excerpt though, which explains the purpose of this research:



So, no Bothrops jararaca don't appear to have oxytocin, but other snakes do.

That is quite interesting. I wish I had more access to scientific articles. I always feel so limited in my research.