Snakes: smart or dumb?

[joann42]

i think we can all agree that snakes are for the most part instinctually driven. and lets face the fact that they do and would survive in the wilderness longer than most humans would due to the snakes prowess =

I often wonder how humans survived at all out there in the wilds.We have lame teeth, we have no claws, our skin is like a pinkie rats, we dont even have a decent sense of smell or hearing....Seriously left naked in the woods most of would die in a few days.
It has to be our brains and the pack animal thing.Team efforts are almost always easier then individuals.

 

[anerybree]

I think we underestimate snakes. Other animals, too. Humans can't seem to figure out what "intelligent" means--we try to attribute it to parts of the brain, but there is always some animal that beats us. Largest brain? Nope, that's the whale. Biggest brain in proportion to total size? Pygmy shrew. Most brain folds? Elephant. Largest cerebral cortex? Orca.

Good point, joann42. Without tools, humans would be at the low end of the food chain. Sure, it's easy enough to take down a dear with a gun, but what if you had to do that bare-handed? And what if that deer was a buck, had antlers, and ripped open your stomach? Yes, we would have problems!

I think my snake is intelligent. Unless shedding, she is always at the top of her cage in the morning and night, ready to greet me and come out. She hangs out in her hammock and knows that she will get out if I see her (aww, poor Estelle, do you want to come out?). She definitely recognizes me. When I bring her out for other people to see and hold, she does great with them for the first 10 minutes but then gets antsy. She will be squirmy and wormy even with someone that is experienced with snakes, but when I take her, she gets quiet. She immediately calms down and stops moving, then only slowly moves around after awhile. I love her! I understand her, and she understands me.

 

[Kokopelli]

I have to be honest, I hadn't had snakes until I recently got my first one in June, but I'd had reptiles since literally the day I was born (Mom was a a rescuer). I thought I had a pretty good gauge of their intelligence level, but my snake is actually EXTREMELY smart. She has actually left me surprised on numerous occasions. Namely, her memory. She recognizes my voice, face, and scent and often leaves her hides to greet me when I come home. Pretty uncommon, I know. But she does it, and it always impresses me. Also, she works with you during handling, instead of against you, and it's almost like she knows better than to bite any human at all.
Did I mention she's an avid music fan as well? I'm telling you, I think some of them are a lot smarter than us humans give them credit for. My mother, after having various reptiles for many years, also agrees with that conclusion.

There's a certain line that animal lovers tend to cross when they really adore their animals... they start attributing human behavior patterns to animals.

For one... snakes cannot hear as we do. Their ears are internal and they pick up vibrations from the ground. Hence- they do not pick up music or a voice aside from the vibrations it may leave on the floor of their location.

Snakes are also -not- social, and therefore are not tuned to anything. They have an extremely accute sense of smell which may give them insight as to what chemicals are emitted by surrounding beings(which may indicate moods). Snakes are solitary by choice.

As animals with very keen survival skills... checking out any movement in the surrounding is basically being a good survivor. Once the owner is recognized as a non threatening individual, the snake has no reason to react violently towards the owner.

Boas are extremely alert to what's going on around them... that doesn't mean they are curious or happy to see me though. It simply means that they are very aware of what's going on around them.

Snakes are not stupid, not at all. But they are -far- from being domesticated animals that respond to music, "like" anyone and definitely do not understand that they "shouldn't bite a human".

These are some of the most primal animals that were taken into human care, and fairly recent as well... some of them removed by a mere generation or two from the wild...

So IMHO, your post is subjective and yes... possibly laced with wishful thinking... which I find endearing, but it doesn't make it true.

There's more to snakes that people give them credit for... but "cuddliness" is definitely not high on their agenda.

I've had wonderful things happen with snakes... some of which indeed, make you blink and wonder what really is going on in their little heads...
But our interpertation is a very subjective thing and we tend to see what we want to see.

So... intelligent? yes. But IMHO, not in a way that makes them "cuddly", "loving" or anything you would associate freely with a dog.

They are some of the oldest life forms on the planet, and have undergone more natural selection than we have. Their success is not a product of stupidity.

 

[legitimatehypnotist]

There's a certain line that animal lovers tend to cross when they really adore their animals... they start attributing human behavior patterns to animals.

For one... snakes cannot hear as we do. Their ears are internal and they pick up vibrations from the ground. Hence- they do not pick up music or a voice aside from the vibrations it may leave on the floor of their location.

I don't anthropomorphize my snakes, I am well aware of what they are capable of. I didn't even imply she could hear music as I heard it, but she does slither over to my speaker when the music is on, and she does lay on top of it. That is not me projecting human emotions on her, that is her seeking out vibration and seemingly, enjoying it.

Also, she has, on numerous occasions, responded to my voice. Just because she hears human voices in the form of vibration doesn't mean she can't express an interest in them or their sources. She associates my presence with feeding and an escape from her tank. Hence "greeting" is a sensible word to use for that behavior. It is truly that simple, and nowhere in the post did I imply an emotional motivation for her behavior.

She is extremely reluctant to bite. After she initially bit a person and it occurred to her she couldn't eat them her first time being handled, she hasn't even so much as coiled. She has no desire to bite anything if it can't nourish her. However, I didn't say she wouldn't if threatened.

Are you also suggesting that a snake is not capable of basic curiosity? I would disagree. Who is to say they do not express this most basic of animal emotions in a way we can't quite grasp? More than half of curiosity is, after all, observation. Snakes are excellent observers.

I can't understand why you would pick my post to prove that they are not "cuddly". I didn't mention her cuddling or being "loving" once. Unless you are implying that I was lying in my post, then were there not other posts where people associated their snakes' behavior with emotion you could have used? This actually came off as condescending to me, sorry.

 

[Kokopelli]

This actually came off as condescending to me, sorry.

I can see why it would and I am sorry about that, it wasn't the intent behind the post.

IMHO, you are not describing the snake's reactions or behavior- but rather, you interpret them in a subjective manner. You're not sticking to facts but to your personal interpretation of them.

To say that she gets out of her hide when you speak would be more accurate than to say that she recognizes your voice, and is actually greeting you.

Another example would be that you describe a theory as fact. You can't state that she learned from a single experience(biting and "realizing she can't eat") and deducted conclusions. You can believe and think that... but can we agree that we do not know for a fact what motivates her? We can't prove she learned... at least not by scientific terms.

I have many snakes that will simply -not- bite. That doesn't mean though that they have learned not to do so... it -can- be the result of selective breeding... we are bound to breed on our favorite animals, and a calmer disposition certainly affects how much we like a snake over another.

Curiosity I do not rule out- I do rule out though that the snake slithers out to greet you and only you based on just your voice.
Curiosity is aimed at any stimuli, not at just a single, very specific one.

I picked your post because it exemplified something I tend to disagree with- and it did that moreso than others because it did not stick to facts, but it continued to interpretations of said behavior.

We do not know what our snakes like or not like... the attraction to the vibrations can have any number of reasons. The word "like" suggests a preference we do not know if exists or not.

I am also quite positive you have better things to do than lie here... so, again, you can accept or disagree, I think that your interpretations of her behavior lean towards the concept of you two sharing a special bond that she doesn't share with others... or indeed, anyone else shares with their snakes.

This too, is not impossible... I think I would have stuck to describing the what, rather than why....

This is not said in order to hurt or patronize you, just explaining.

 

[legitimatehypnotist]

I can see why it would and I am sorry about that, it wasn't the intent behind the post.

IMHO, you are not describing the snake's reactions or behavior- but rather, you interpret them in a subjective manner. You're not sticking to facts but to your personal interpretation of them.

I can understand that. But I've come to these conclusions after a long time of watching her behaviors evolve. Like I said, I've truly had reptiles in my house since I was a child. I understand that when your lizard/snake does something cute, that they are more than likely not expressing affection towards you. For instance, when my snake licks my face, sure, I'll call them "kisses", but I know they are nothing of the sort and she's really just smelling/tasting my face. Also, I'll call it "cuddling" when she coils up on me, but I know as a snake owner that she's really just seeking my warmth and has become used to me enough to seek it on my lap. However, I say these things out of habit, so the people I talk to can understand a snake's actions, not so that I can. This is a part of something all reptile owners experience when trying to describe it to people who are otherwise unfamiliar with them.

Although she was my first personal snake, my mother was a reptile rescuer, and I do see her behavior as unique when I compare it to the behaviors of other snakes. Especially when it comes to her interactions with particular people, she really interests me in this aspect. It may be because that particular specimen has more sentimental value than the others, but I wouldn't feel that way if there weren't a reason for that. I interpret her behavior as her "liking" things for one simple reason, and that is because if snakes don't like something, they tend to avoid it. Expressing repeated interest in one thing is as close to "liking" something as a snake is going to get, and who are we to say they can't like something.
You said yourself, we don't actually know. We can't understand, so we can only assume. There is a fine line between projecting "human emotions" on an animal and assuming what their behavior means. The ability to like something is not unique to humans, and neither is holding a preference towards something.

And I would never assume that we have some unique bond that is closer than anybody else has with their snakes, and in no way was I trying to suggest either of those. I am extremely interested in my snakes, and I observe them constantly. This snake is the only one I have to actually respond to my voice or to outside stimuli in a visible way, and that is undoubtedly what she does. Whether she actually likes it or not, it is still a testament to her alertness and her curiosity, and I'm assuming she's not a unique, all-knowing unusual snake, and other people have got to have snakes that exhibit the same behavior.

I think it may have been you who misinterpreted my post. When I said "Avid music fan", I was being half sarcastic and referring to her being constantly drawn to my speakers and her obvious investigation of them. All I really said was that she appears to have a great memory and recognizes outside stimuli, nothing really worth arguing about if you ask me.

 

[legitimatehypnotist]

Basically, what I'm trying to say is that when I got my snake, I was expecting to own an animal with little more capacity for any sort of knowledge than a moth drawn to light. But I was impressed by what I got, and how she could manage to tell me (almost) everything I needed to know about her husbandry and individual personality and tendencies without the need for sound, or arms or legs or purring or drooling or anything that another living thing would need to convey that same message.

Call me crazy, but I do relate these quirks snakes have to a sort of intelligence. I wouldn't say snakes are geniuses by any means, lol, but I think they definitely have as much smarts as they need for themselves, and enough to help their keepers out, too.

 

[Kokopelli]

I may have taken your descriptions to be too literal than.
Happens.
I've had odd things happen with my snakes... definitely signs of intelligence... just that for some people, intelligence=pet like behavior/domestication, which doesn't really apply to snakes and it's usually wishful thinking.

Usually when I describe things, I describe the chain of events and let people believe what they will of it- that's how I usually go about things.

I also can't nor wish to rule out your conclusions.

I think we got our points across

 

[vliberatore]

I swear my snake is retarded. Every night she climbs up and slithers around the top of her viv on the lip. The only problem is she's too big to stay up there and falls over and over and over again. But she's so darn cute!

 

[Dreamsnake]

I think I've impressed myself on the snakes so that they understand me as part of their terrain. They aren't happy to see me as excited to explore the soft warm moving jungle gym. The ball python does enjoy rubbing his scales on my husband's shaved head. I notice when the corns experience a new texture they'll take it slowly and rub their bellies to figure out traction, in their own way they learn.

I don't mind that snakes are not as smart as rodents, I do not like rodents.

 

[Karoni]

My avatar is a picture I snapped at the height of what I would call an incident of snake curiosity. It came about this way: Sienna and Firefly's viv's are right next to each other, but they cannot see each other because I have a terrarium background liner on the sides of their cages. One night, I sat down on an ottoman that is exactly centered where their cages meet. They were both out in the open. Sienna was on her hammock; Firefly was roaming her viv. I took turns talking to them, giving each one my attention. At one point, Firefly began climbing the glass of her tank. I found this exciting because at that point I hadn't seen it many times and never from her, my little lazy butt. I began talking to her and "encouraging" her to climb the glass higher. (I encouraged her because it was fun for me, not because I thought she knew or cared what I thought. )

After a minute or two of this, I switched my attention back to Sienna. She had been sitting fully nestled on her hammock. But while I was talking to Firefly, she had inched forward farther and farther toward me. She was staring intently at me (I know, because her pupils were pointed foward in her head if that makes sense.) She had tilted her head sideways and for all the world, it looked like she was thinking, "What ARE you doing?"

I figure if a snake care show curiosity, there's got to be something going on in there.