Snow stripe questions

[shaberry]

So, I was looking for the genetic make up for champagne snow stripe corn snakes. And, I found that they're a combination of amel, anery, and stripe. Literature states that the champagne snows can only be made from snows. So, my question is, is where does the pink coloration come from? The only thing I can think of is the combination of a coral snow and a snow stripe. Any explanation from the breeding and genetics pros around here?

 

[Jenstar]

Good question... I can't wait to find out.

 

[Susan]

So I'm guessing that you discovered that champagne snows are a selectively bred variety? That's more than what I've been able to find! (I'll admit, I haven't looked hard.) The pink probably comes from the same place as seen in bubblegum snows, neon snows, pink and green snows, etc. And that's probably the same place the pinks come from in pastel ghosts and anerys, coral ghosts, etc. Determine THAT and you'll have answered one of corn snake's biggest mysteries!

 

[shaberry]

Awwww...and I thought this was an already solved phenomenon. Well then, how about this. What snows are mainly used to create this morph? I find it hard to see that regular stripe snows are used to develop champagnes, because they would only produce more snow stripes. So, would the main morphs combined to create the champagne be the coral snow and the snow stripe? I only suggest this because the coral snow is the only snow that I know of that appears with the colors reasembling the champagne. Meh, I guess the only way to see what really works is to just mate snows together and see what I get. >.<;;; But does anyone want to share their breeding trial results?

 

[Nanci]

I think you'd be better off starting out with already selectively bred snows- it's take forever to get there starting from scratch.

 

[shaberry]

I would, but it kinda seems exciting to see which combined morphs brought about the champagnes. But, then again, that would be taking up a big headache. I guess the best route would be to just use snakes proven with the champagne genes. But, it sure would be nice to know the background and parentage that started it all. =)

 

[Drewby07]

shaberry -

One thing you should undertandis that champagne isn't a MORPH per se...It's a snow stripe that was selected because it was pinker than the rest...then bred to another pinkish one....then out of those babies the pinkest were selected....etc etc through many generations....

But at the end of the day they are still "just" snow stripes....

 

[MedusaCorns]

What would a strawberry snow be? Would that be a coral snow? We saw one at NERDS. Very pink and green instead of yellow and white. Wasn't really sure of the name then and still don't hear it often but it sure was nice looking.

 

[Drewby07]

I believe strawberry is a term given to a new type of hypo....

Some people call snows that are also homo hypo "coral" snows...because they exhibit a lot of pink. The problem arises when you try to tell apart a "coral" and something selectively bred like a "bubblegum" or "champagne"......

 

[Caryl]

Awwww...and I thought this was an already solved phenomenon. Well then, how about this. What snows are mainly used to create this morph? I find it hard to see that regular stripe snows are used to develop champagnes, because they would only produce more snow stripes.

I would, but it kinda seems exciting to see which combined morphs brought about the champagnes. But, then again, that would be taking up a big headache. I guess the best route would be to just use snakes proven with the champagne genes. But, it sure would be nice to know the background and parentage that started it all. =)

There is no gene that codes for champagne. As others have said, it's a selectively bred color. A snake can't be "het" for selectively bred traits, either. You're correct that breeding two stripe snows produces more stripe snows. The offspring may or may not have coloration like the parent(s).

For a comparable human example that's easy to visualize, consider red hair. I have a friend who has beautiful, coppery red hair. Her husband's hair is brown with sandy tones. They have four sons, all of whom have red-toned hair. The boys' hair colors range from pale strawberry blond to deep auburn; no two have the same hair color, nor do any of them have hair just like a parent's.

Developing your own line of selectively bred animals can be done, of course, but it's a lot faster if you begin with animals that have the look you want as a foundation. In other words, pick the "champagne-est" stripe snows you can get and breed them to one another. Keep the babies that are closest to the look you want, then breed them, etc.

The downside to this - as well as part of the fun, IMHO - is that you can't look at a hatchling and predict with certainly what it will look like with adult coloration. Experienced breeders can make educated guesses, but if you're working on a selectively bred line, you should expect to keep a lot of babies and grow them up to see how they look.

 

[stephen]

Caryl

Do you work with/breed any champagne snows?
How are you so sure, (There is no gene that codes for champagne).
Not sure what it is, but I would say theres something besides selective breeding.
Coral snows from Don Soderberg ,look nothing like hypo snows I have seen.
I worked with a very pink snow before, I named neon, when I bred them to other very pink snows (bubblegums) . I never produced babys that where as pink as the neons. So if it is as simple as selective breeding, why wouldnt the babys that hatched been as pink?
I know they gain more color as they grow, so I had to hold back alot and selected what I thought may get alot of pink and they never did.

 

[mike17l]

Champagne Snows = Hybrids. That is why they have so much color.

Do you work with/breed any champagne snows?
How are you so sure, (There is no gene that codes for champagne).
Not sure what it is, but I would say theres something besides selective breeding.
Coral snows from Don Soderberg ,look nothing like hypo snows I have seen.
I worked with a very pink snow before, I named neon, when I bred them to other very pink snows (bubblegums) . I never produced babys that where as pink as the neons. So if it is as simple as selective breeding, why wouldnt the babys that hatched been as pink?
I know they gain more color as they grow, so I had to hold back alot and selected what I thought may get alot of pink and they never did.

These snows (bubblegums, pink and green, neon, ect) are the result of polygenetic traits. Many of the high colored lines of snow corns come from the combination of multiple genes. There may be 2 or 3 or even more genes that can be attributed to the color. The reason that you did not produce the expected phenotype, high colored snows, is the genes that control that color, in each of those line breed variations of snow, are different. Drosophila flys have around 14,000 genes and some worms have more than 20,000. It stands to reason that a vertebrate would have many more genes than these "older" species. Any one or three of the genes that a corn snake has can code for something different. Different lines of colorful snows very likely take advantage of different genes to reach a very similar means. I can drive to New York City through Atlanta, Chicago, Dayton, Nashville, or any numbers of ways. I could make a huge production out of it and hit all those cities and more. These different colorful lines of snows are very similar, one destination, but many different ways to get there. So if I were to cross two different lines of these snows I would actually expect no offspring that looked like either line. I would expect all "normal" snows (F1). But, if I breed those "normal" snows together I would expect some variation in their offspring (F2). I would then breed the most colorful of those together creating the F3 generation, at this point I would expect to see some of the combined effects of the different lines. Until the F3 or even possibly the F4 generation is created (10 + years possibly) I would not expect to have anything near unique, different, or what I would consider colorful. It would take many years of selective breeding to reach the end of a project of this magnitude. This is why many breeders who have some of these lines (like Don's coral snows) demand a high price for their offspring.

 

[Drewby07]

That's the first time I've ever heard that the champagne's were hybrids....is there any evidence to back this up? (not that I'm disagreeing...I just haven't heard this til now)

 

[mike17l]

That's the first time I've ever heard that the champagne's were hybrids....is there any evidence to back this up? (not that I'm disagreeing...I just haven't heard this til now)

Pasco Paul is a known/big time hybridizer, so that leaves a bad taste in one's mouth about the purity of champagnes. Add to that that every now and then you get a "throwback" with mildly to severely keeled scales, you can really only have one logical conclusion. I am not saying they are hybrids, but it sure would explain a lot. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, well...

 

[ForkedTung]

I am not saying they are hybrids,

Champagne Snows = Hybrids. That is why they have so much color.

Huh?


Mike, I'm not sure I understand this:

So if I were to cross two different lines of these snows I would actually expect no offspring that looked like either line. I would expect all "normal" snows (F1). But, if I breed those "normal" snows together I would expect some variation in their offspring (F2). I would then breed the most colorful of those together creating the F3 generation, at this point I would expect to see some of the combined effects of the different lines. Until the F3 or even possibly the F4 generation is created (10 + years possibly)

Can this be referenced with respect to Mendelian genetics?
Thanks, Kyle

 

[mike17l]

Can this be referenced with respect to Mendelian genetics?
Thanks, Kyle

No. With these lines of corns, we are looking at polygenetic traits. There may be 2, 3 or more genes that control those colors. If we knew which genes it was and exactly what they controlled, we could possibly use mendalian genetics to explain it. This is just like eye and skin color in humans, except in humans we actually know which genes are involved so we can predict offspring phenotype.
If you were to breed two different lines of colorful snows, it would be like starting all over again from scratch with a "normal" snow. It would most likely take many years and generations to see any kind of productive results.

 

[ForkedTung]

No. With these lines of corns, we are looking at polygenetic traits. There may be 2, 3 or more genes that control those colors. If we knew which genes it was and exactly what they controlled, we could possibly use mendalian genetics to explain it. This is just like eye and skin color in humans, except in humans we actually know which genes are involved so we can predict offspring phenotype.
If you were to breed two different lines of colorful snows, it would be like starting all over again from scratch with a "normal" snow. It would most likely take many years and generations to see any kind of productive results.

So ( in a nutshell) your saying that it could be explained via Mendel, but we don't have enough information about the different genes, especially because (my words here) hypo type genes are difficult to isolate because their effect is not as pronounced as say a colored gene...plus the problems caused by potential intergrades...? make sense?

 

[mike17l]

So ( in a nutshell) your saying that it could be explained via Mendel, but we don't have enough information about the different genes, especially because (my words here) hypo type genes are difficult to isolate because their effect is not as pronounced as say a colored gene...plus the problems caused by potential intergrades...? make sense?

That's the basic idea.

 

[Shiari]

It's also difficult because the individual genes likely don't have much effect on their own.

It's not off-black or on-diffused. It's more like, from my understanding, 'slight increase in peach from this gene... and this one over here... and these two way over there and then some pink from that one, that one and that one.'

It's just bringing certain variances together and adding up on it, similar to how you get huge borders on an abbott's okeetee or such brightly silver miamis that carol produces. If you breed those out to something else, some might look somewhat like abbott parent or the miami parent, but they won't be as good because they don't have the full set of certain tiny traits all brought together. If you bred the offspring back to the parents, you could probably go a fair distance in recovering the look in some of them, but if you breed them to something else entirely again, those offspring probably won't look much like the original parent.

 

[Caryl]

Gee, I go computer-less for a weekend and most of the good points are made without me.

Mike, Kyle and Shiari summed things up well. I'd humbly like to add that I believe that corns exhibit epistasis (when one gene affects the expression of a different gene), which contributes to confusion in predicting a consistent outcome for some of these phenotypic traits that aren't strictly Mendelian. Epistasis is different from dominance and recession; those terms apply to paired alleles that code for the same trait. When epistasis occurs, one gene masks or changes the expression of a different gene at a different locus. It seems to me that this may occur in some of these subtleties of color and/or pattern refinement, particularly in some of those can't-predict-it peachy, purple-y undertones that certain morphs sometimes develop, and which don't seem to follow a normal Mendelian inheritance pattern.

Then again, to paraphrase Kyle, maybe we just don't know enough about which genes code for what traits to realize it's ALL simply Mendelian. Aren't corn snake genetics fun?