Snow stripe questions

[ForkedTung]

I'd humbly like to add that I believe that corns exhibit epistasis (when one gene affects the expression of a different gene), which contributes to confusion in predicting a consistent outcome for some of these phenotypic traits that aren't strictly Mendelian. Epistasis is different from dominance and recession; those terms apply to paired alleles that code for the same trait. When epistasis occurs, one gene masks or changes the expression of a different gene at a different locus. It seems to me that this may occur in some of these subtleties of color and/or pattern refinement, particularly in some of those can't-predict-it peachy, purple-y undertones that certain morphs sometimes develop, and which don't seem to follow a normal Mendelian inheritance pattern.


Very interesting Caryl, I would have to agree with your belief that epistasis could be controlling the variable outcomes. It is also my understanding that the "supressed gene", hypostatic, can be influenced by more than one other gene. As if the potential for complications wasn't enough.....

Then again, to paraphrase Kyle, maybe we just don't know enough about which genes code for what traits to realize it's ALL simply Mendelian. Aren't corn snake genetics fun?

Whose Kyle...lol

 

[Caryl]

Whose Kyle...lol

Kyle? Why, he's a bright fellow who's interested in genetics. :eatsmiley

 

[poppycorn]

I have been working with various forms of pink for several years now. I believe it to be a combination of several genes that are controlling different parts of the process.

Genes make specific proteins. The proteins are compounds that do things.
Here are some of the things that the different compounds (made by different genes may potentially do:

Produce a specific pigment
(pink, which is quite possibly a form of red, and there seems to be more than one sort)
control which part of the pattern that pigment is produced in
(neon is more in the ground, coral in the saddles)
control how much pigment is produced
(some individuals have more than others)
determine when that pigment is produced
(neon and champagne come in early, coral develops over time)​

and much more, but you get the idea.

I have been working with the combinations of different pinks, and it isn't really working out like Michael described. Some of the pinks are synergistic and genetically compatible with each other while contributing their own unique characteristics to the mix. Which would make sense if some genes are "enhancing" others. That seems to be the case with coral, which tends to intensify the red of everything it's bred into. Note that I am calling the SMR coral "coral" and not hypo. I have a couple different permutations of hypo A and the coral behaves nothing like them.

As to Champagnes being hybrids, Pasco Paul, who worked for years to select for them, says that they are not and I will take him at his word. But there does seem the be something unique about the Champagne version of pink that is different than the neons and corals which are more similar to each other. http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=83852

It is really fun playing with the pink genes. There are lots of eye-popping babies in my snake room from last year and I can't wait to see what I get from year's pairings.

 

[marinneli]

Coral snows from Don Soderberg ,look nothing like hypo snows I have seen.

It would take many years of selective breeding to reach the end of a project of this magnitude. This is why many breeders who have some of these lines (like Don's coral snows) demand a high price for their offspring.

I have been working with the combinations of different pinks, and it isn't really working out like Michael described. Some of the pinks are synergistic and genetically compatible with each other while contributing their own unique characteristics to the mix. Which would make sense if some genes are "enhancing" others. That seems to be the case with coral, which tends to intensify the red of everything it's bred into. Note that I am calling the SMR coral "coral" and not hypo. I have a couple different permutations of hypo A and the coral behaves nothing like them.

Umm....OK... I'm about to get a Coral Snow female bred by Don, so this issue really got my attention.

Are you saying his Coral Snows aren't actually Corals Snows in the right meaning: Hypo A + Amel + Anery, but instead selectively bred snows like bubblegums? Or genetically something completely different?

I've always known hypo snows as Coral Snows, and I've never ever have thought someone would call selectively bred something with the same name.

Poppycorn, why did you point out, that you call SMR coral a coral and not hypo? Aren't they hypo snows then? Did you also mean that you have many hypo combinations you play with, but coral snow doesn't follow the "hypo rule"...? Meaning that coral might not be hypo at all?


I'm a bit confused here...


I'd really love to know what I'm getting, because I thought I'd use the SMR Coral Snow for Ghost and Coral project, and I'd breed her to a Ghost het. Amel. But if the Coral isn't hypo snow per se..........then I'm lost.....

 

[marinneli]

Poppycorn, I found the answer already on your website


But are you sure SMR Corals are NOT hypo snows? For example line bred hypo snows considering the fact that stephen said they don't look anything like hypo snows he's seen?

Poppycorn explained that corals tend to intensify the pinks when bred to a different snow. Coulndn't hypo be that strong among snows, that even het. hypo shows? It's almost the same with caramel: normal het. caramels and amel het. caramels are usually different looking than the regular ones. If the F1 from SMR Coral and Bubblegum are actually just Snow het. Hypos, but they show the colours thanks to the line bred parents?

Has anyone tested SMR Corals against the Hypo A trait????


I guess that combining the SMR Coral Snow I'm about to get to Ghost line would produce some pretty nice Pastel Ghosts (at least in F2) if the Coral indeed makes the pink tones stronger. But would I get any Coral snows, if I bred it to a Ghost het. Amel?

And if the Coral isn't hypo snow, then Ghost het. Amel + Coral breeding should produce only Pastel Aneries het. Hypo, Amel.

 

[poppycorn]

But are you sure SMR Corals are NOT hypo snows? For example line bred hypo snows considering the fact that stephen said they don't look anything like hypo snows he's seen?

There is nothing I have seen thus far that would indicate that they are, at least not in the entirety of the the group of genes that the corals have.

Poppycorn explained that corals tend to intensify the pinks when bred to a different snow. Coulndn't hypo be that strong among snows, that even het. hypo shows? It's almost the same with caramel: normal het. caramels and amel het. caramels are usually different looking than the regular ones. If the F1 from SMR Coral and Bubblegum are actually just Snow het. Hypos, but they show the colours thanks to the line bred parents?

That is certainly true for coral. A het coral can be very pink, and my het coral fires are intensly cherry red and dark orange, easily distinguishable from the het sunglow stripe fires, even those with the "red factor". I suspect that is why there are so many lame coral snows...they are only het for coral and lack some of the other genes the intensify the color. My het hypo A projects don't do that at all, they are indistinguishable from the non-hets.

Has anyone tested SMR Corals against the Hypo A trait????

I guess that combining the SMR Coral Snow I'm about to get to Ghost line would produce some pretty nice Pastel Ghosts (at least in F2) if the Coral indeed makes the pink tones stronger. But would I get any Coral snows, if I bred it to a Ghost het. Amel?

And if the Coral isn't hypo snow, then Ghost het. Amel + Coral breeding should produce only Pastel Aneries het. Hypo, Amel.

A good coral is so potent that you my not be able to tell what you have, especially if the hypo already has some of the other helper genes that intensify the pink color. You will likely get at least a couple screamers from that cross. At this point, things are not clear cut. But they ARE fun, and very beautiful.