Stargazing

[Drizzt80]

How does this

Otherwise these snakes are healthy and mentally fine - they still eat, shed and poo like any other cornsnake.
Het Stargazers will show no visible signs of carrying the Stargazing gene.

translate to this

There is expected to be a premium on the cost of snakes from clean lines, to encourage people to keep them clean.

Being "clean" (more expensive) would indicate that anything else is "dirty", yet "dirty" is described as healthy and mentally fine. Really? :shrugs:

How about lines with Amel? What is done when an undesirable gene (as related to the target morph) like Amel pops up in a line and """destroys""" the project that had lots of money invested? How is that any different? Especially considering it happens a heck of a lot more often than with stargazer!

Also by the logic presented with stargazer, every snake is 50% het for everything. Interesting concept. I guess any snake you buy now needs to be "cleaned" for all other morphs that may just mess up your target morph project.

How/Why is choosing NOT to breed obviously physically/neurologically handicapped snakes considered HIDING the gene? Especially when they're described as just fine and dandy other than the flipping over thingy. Along that logic, we are also hiding Amel, Anery, Hypo, et. al. if your lines are not "cleaned" of those genes as well.

And then, to top it all off, the purveyor of the term "space garbage" thinks it's all important to test for stargazer, priority one, while we're just supposed to accept that corn snake lines in captivity may not even be genetically pure on top of it? Wow, that's kinda funny.

I think this quote sums up the impetus behind "clean lines":

There is expected to be a premium on the cost of snakes from clean lines, to encourage people to keep them clean.

Good luck!
D80

 

[Wilko92]

Being "clean" (more expensive) would indicate that anything else is "dirty", yet "dirty" is described as healthy and mentally fine. Really? :shrugs:

No, "clean" (and possibly more expensive) is free of Stargazing, het or homo. It seems like a bit of a leap to say that because "clean" was used to describe one thing then the other can be assumed "dirty". But still, if you want to use that logic, then "dirty" would be het and homo Stargazers - or the Stargazing gene would be "dirty".

How about lines with Amel? What is done when an undesirable gene (as related to the target morph) like Amel pops up in a line and """destroys""" the project that had lots of money invested? How is that any different? Especially considering it happens a heck of a lot more often than with stargazer!

I'd say it was different in that the thing that popped up wasn't a neurological problem that actually affects the way the cornsnakes behave and move. Wouldn't Stargazing in a clutch "destroy" a project even more completely than an unplanned/unexpected morph popping up. If you want to look at it from the angle that a lot of money is invested in the project, then at least you could sell a project clutch even if it isn't the specific morph / contains the exact genes. I'd personally be quite surprised (and horrified) if people bought/sold Stargazers like this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flDRXiH0Xm8

Also by the logic presented with stargazer, every snake is 50% het for everything. Interesting concept. I guess any snake you buy now needs to be "cleaned" for all other morphs that may just mess up your target morph project.

You just said so yourself that morphs already pop up in projects - which happens because snakes carried unexpected hets.

How/Why is choosing NOT to breed obviously physically/neurologically handicapped snakes considered HIDING the gene?

Where was it suggested that choosing not to breed from Stargazing snakes considered hiding the gene? Not breeding (other than test-breeding) from Stargazing snakes is a good thing.

Especially when they're described as just fine and dandy other than the flipping over thingy.

Do you not consider the fact that they flip over an issue? I would be quite worried if my dog or cat just "flipped over".

Along that logic, we are also hiding Amel, Anery, Hypo, et. al. if your lines are not "cleaned" of those genes as well.

And then, to top it all off, the purveyor of the term "space garbage" thinks it's all important to test for stargazer, priority one, while we're just supposed to accept that corn snake lines in captivity may not even be genetically pure on top of it? Wow, that's kinda funny.

I think this quote sums up the impetus behind "clean lines":


Good luck!

D80

I have read and read your post and I still don't understand this part. Why the mention of how pure cornsnake lines are? My issue is that I'm trying to inform/encourage people to breed out or clean their lines of STARGAZING, which is a recessive gene that cause neurological problems which are exasperated by stimulation.
You also say "What is done when an undesirable gene (as related to the target morph) like Amel pops up in a line and """destroys""" the project that had lots of money invested?" but then apparently condemn or frown on the possibility of a premium being put on Stargazer clean lines.
If you could explain your post I'd much appreciate it

 

[Wilko92]

"First, could you explain to me why you say I am incorrect that SerpenCo stock has a higher chance of being het Stargazing?"

Because Rich bought his first sunkissed from me, a couple of pairs, as far as I remember. So he would have gotten the stargazer gene pretty much just like anyone else who ever bought sunkissed. And most people with sunkissed did breed them into several or more other morphs.

So how would any of that translate into his bloodlines having a heavier percentage than anyone else who ever bred sunkissed into other projects? I am not following the logic.

Somebody might think that I would have a higher percentage, since it originated with me. But that would not be true either, since I purposely avoided breeding into other lines (although now I have bought some lav sunkissed - have no idea if they are "clean" or not). And although it did originate in my okeetee lines, I have sold those throughout the US and abroad since the '80s. So I don't see how any one breeder is going to be more likely to have a higher concentration, unless maybe they specialize in sunkissed combos, and have not tested them yet.

My logic was that I had heard (and read from other sources) that he had outcrossed his projects a lot. And my point was not that his sunkissed project blood lines had a heavier percentage of Stargazing (as there are only three possibilities - either the line has no SG, the line contains het SG (which would appear normal) or the line contains home SG (which would be visually SG)) but that more of his lines from his collections outside of his sunkissed projects have a chance of being Stargazing carriers, due to the outcrossing. That was all. If people know of other breeders who have done the same, and have evidence to back it up, then I would name them too in order to warn people.
If I'm wrong and he didn't outcross his lines, then I'm sorry but I was going by information I'd found and thought to be correct. I do try not to make wild claims without cause.

 

[kathylove]

I believe Rich did outcross his sunkissed to a lot of other lines. But what I meant to say is that virtually everyone who bought sunkissed from me also planned to outcross them into lots of other lines. I don't know of anyone who bought them just to produce more sunkissed, and not to outcross them. I am sure somebody did, but nobody I talked to suggested that is what they would do.

So that is why I didn't understand why you thought his lines were more likely "contaminated" than those from other breeders.

If you really want lines "clean" of SG, it is best to buy from somebody who specifically test breeds for it. Or who has isolated (no unknown blood introduced since before SG was discovered) lines that have never had an influx of any okeetee or sunkissed bloodlines, ever.

 

[carnivorouszoo]

I would like to know how we are expected to test breed if there are none for sale in to use to test breed. Perhaps someone can purposely breed some and kind of "rent" them as test stock? I for one have never even seen a stargazer except on youtube. All of my snakes are from untested lines, does this mean no one should buy from me in the future? I certainly hope not. I do not breed for profit but I do hope to use any money earned to buy food for my animals and not just the snakes, it would be used as needed for any of my projects. Honestly, there is no way for ALL corns to be tested if there are no stargazers available to test with. Thus I agree that any not showing symptoms should be sold but they should be marked as stargazer unknown, and not automatically reprisented as clear of the gene (I prefer clear to clean as being unclear to me means it is unknown where as being dirty means undesireable). I would gladly do test breedings knowing full well that the hatchlings would have to be destroyed reguardless of how they hatched. Being because they would be het for it. I also know I would have to never breed that snake again if there were homo stargazers in the clutch. It would hurt emotionally, but financially it would not harm me as the het retired breeder would be a fine pet for myself.

But I would like to know how it is honestly to be expected for all breeders to test for this when there are NO stargazers available to test with?

 

[Susan]

Oh, there are breeders that sell known stargazers for test breeding.

 

[Drizzt80]

But I would like to know how it is honestly to be expected for all breeders to test for this when there are NO stargazers available to test with?

There are all kinds available. For free even. People are breeding them on purpose in order to test and "clean" their lines. Of course that just creates more questionable, het and homo animals.

And of course once you've given someone else said animal, you have no control over what they do with it.

But yet, those not purposely testing their lines are bad and dishonest and just trying to make a quick buck. At least that's what others would have you believe.

D80

 

[TandJ]

My logic was that I had heard (and read from other sources) that he had outcrossed his projects a lot. And my point was not that his sunkissed project blood lines had a heavier percentage of Stargazing (as there are only three possibilities - either the line has no SG, the line contains het SG (which would appear normal) or the line contains home SG (which would be visually SG)) but that more of his lines from his collections outside of his sunkissed projects have a chance of being Stargazing carriers, due to the outcrossing. That was all. If people know of other breeders who have done the same, and have evidence to back it up, then I would name them too in order to warn people.
If I'm wrong and he didn't outcross his lines, then I'm sorry but I was going by information I'd found and thought to be correct. I do try not to make wild claims without cause.

I can well imagine what the other Source is... *lol* Shrugs, I would think there is a little bad blood there.. Hey it brings a lot of business too, imagine that.. I am not certainly not ignorant nor am I stupid, but pretty damn perceptive.. Space Garbage would need to be researched by yourself to figure that one out, but I can certainly say I am not a culperit in producing garbage like some other well knowns are and have in the past..

I would like to know how we are expected to test breed if there are none for sale in to use to test breed. Perhaps someone can purposely breed some and kind of "rent" them as test stock? I for one have never even seen a stargazer except on youtube.

I have a pair of homo SG animals for that purpose.. Don't bother asking what I intend to do with the offspring, because I am not completely conclusive to any particular set plans..

 

[wstphal]

There are all kinds available. For free even. People are breeding them on purpose in order to test and "clean" their lines. Of course that just creates more questionable, het and homo animals.

And of course once you've given someone else said animal, you have no control over what they do with it.

I suspect I will do some test breeding with snakes I own who might be het SG. I have accordingly talked to a couple people who are doing test breeding to try to eliminate SG from their breeding colonies, and generally they sound pretty careful not to let known hets or homo SGs go to anyone who is going to propagate them beyond what is necessary to find out if a given snake is het SG. And the ones I've talked to cull the babies that prove het or homo SG and then retire the proven-het-gazer from their plans.

None of this takes away from other criticisms of this thread. It's just what little I know about the SG issue.

 

[TandJ]

Is this the position that other breeders of Sunkissed support? Considering that all Sunkissed lines have a 50% chance of carrying the SG gene, it is surprising that nobody seems to be finding it, except those who are testing for it.

Are other breeders of Sunkissed following Mike‘s “who cares” position and covering up SG in their Sunkissed lines?

No, not my position either, but I would not do others like I have seen respective breeders do others eithier, with the SG gene or secretive injections of Flagyl to help along their pocket books to boot..

Its not easy to convince me to hold water for a lot of people, BTDT, and found there was a hole in the bucket anyways, and it all just drained away uncovering the dirty truthes..

 

[wstphal]

Tim, no disrespect intended but I am totally confused as to what "secretive injections of Flagyl" is all about. I know what Flagyl is but otherwise I'm lost.

BTW I know you wouldn't engage in any coverups. If you find any gazers in your colony, you'll be honest about it. That's one reason why I know I will end up buying snakes from you sooner or later!

 

[TandJ]

Whats up??

Semi stimulated but intently focused..

Concentrating on the meal at hand..

Betsy, XYC breeder isn't the only one that works on Stargazers.. Although they can certainly make a sale...

 

[TandJ]

Tim, no disrespect intended but I am totally confused as to what "secretive injections of Flagyl" is all about. I know what Flagyl is but otherwise I'm lost.

Flagyl of course is intended to treat some serious infections, you know that yourself.. At some point there will be more clarification, caveat emptor.

 

[wstphal]

Cute pictures! It appears that the weirdness doesn't impair the usual cornsnake enthusiasm for food, or their enjoyment of life.

I dunno who XYC is though. I've talked via PMs to a couple people who are trying to be sure they don't have any het SGs in their lines accidentally but they aren't big names or anything.

 

[cobained]

Since there's actually some activity in this thread, I have a few SG questions. I started a thread in the behavior forum regarding 4 hatchlings from a breeding this year that were all born with neurological problems. Neither parent is known to be from sunkissed lines, but I don't have any sort of pedigree on them.

Anyways, in an effort to prevent making these odd hatchlings in the future I was trying to figure out if they ARE stargazers, or if their issues are from something else. Besides being very wobbly-headed, they all appear to have very small heads and have a splotch of saddle color as a "head pattern" (they're all stripes). Do known stargazers have ANY sort of physical differences than non-SG?

 

[wstphal]

Flagyl of course is intended to treat some serious infections, you know that yourself.. At some point there will be more clarification, caveat emptor.

Yeah, I know what it's good for in humans & quadrupeds. Truly, though, I can only guess what it would be used for in herps.

 

[wstphal]

Since there's actually some activity in this thread, I have a few SG questions. I started a thread in the behavior forum regarding 4 hatchlings from a breeding this year that were all born with neurological problems. Neither parent is known to be from sunkissed lines, but I don't have any sort of pedigree on them.

Anyways, in an effort to prevent making these odd hatchlings in the future I was trying to figure out if they ARE stargazers, or if their issues are from something else. Besides being very wobbly-headed, they all appear to have very small heads and have a splotch of saddle color as a "head pattern" (they're all stripes). Do known stargazers have ANY sort of physical differences than non-SG?

I don't think so. The pictures & videos I've seen all have normal head sizes for age, and most have been sunkissed so have had the SK head pattern. Tim probably knows more than me though.

Small heads would suggest various developmental causes in mammals. And if the brain doesn't develop properly the head winds up small and the mammal has various neurological problems including possibly coordination issues. My guess, if their heads are small, they aren't SGs they have some other neurological problem, which could be genetic or could be due to incubation.

Any info on possible incubation issues like temp spikes or low temps? Are the parents siblings? (That would suggest some other Mendelian recessive weirdness that causes microcephaly rather than SG.).

 

[TandJ]

Do known stargazers have ANY sort of physical differences than non-SG?

Not that I have personally seen...

 

[TandJ]

Truly, though, I can only guess what it would be used for in herps.

It has a different name in the Vet World.. Now, if I am not mistaken, its a hell of a dewormer/parasite remover, likely encountered by poor conditions..

Regards.. Tim of T and J in a subtle mood..

 

[wstphal]

I don't know about worms, but it works great on a range of intestinal parasites & bacteria in mammals. Giardia would be a great example of a parasite that it kills.