Testing my Reseach!

[Raynen]

I just posted an introduction in the New Member Thread, but I figured I'd make my "Test Raynen's Knowledge" post here! I hope it's not going to be a novel of a post :rofl:

Getting a pet is a big deal, and I'm one to spend a long time on research. My biggest fear is to get a pet and then either get very overwhelmed with the lack of knowledge, or even worse accidentally killing the poor thing because I was too impulsive to get "such a cool pet." I cannot stand it when I see a stubborn, selfish pet "owner" keep a pet in sheer stubbornness, even though it's clearly being ignored or mistreated. Regardless, I won't be able to get my own snake until I graduate from my Dental Assisting program and get settled in my own place. It's giving me a lot of time to gain as much knowledge as possible! This is why I'm so glad I'd stumbled on this forum about two weeks ago (I've been lurking and only just a few days ago I joined).

Instead of asking the usual questions, I want to do a write-up of my "viv" to see if I've gathered enough information on husbandry and care, and then ask questions that I've yet to see or been able to research myself. I've read the stickies and many care sheets outside of the forum, so it's a bit overwhelming. Without further ado, it's time to test my knowledge:
Please do not at all hesitate to fix/correct anything here!!


The Viv!
10 gallon tank and then as an adult, a 20 gallon tank.

I live in New England so and Under the Tank Heater is necessary. From what I've gathered, the cool side should be between 73-80F and the warm side should be 80-85F. The lowest temp should never go below 70F and the highest should never go above 90F. The thermometers should be measuring RIGHT above the substrate.

I will place one hide on the cool side and one on the warm side. I'll have a water bowl big enough so he (or she xD) can submerge but not too big so he won't be able to escape. As for decor, maybe a few of those silk vine tree things and a "branch" from the pet store (I do not plan to bring anything in the viv from the outside).

Substrate... the great debate (it rhymes, I couldn't help myself!) Basically any cedar, pine, and other tree shavings should be avoided, except Aspen bedding. Sand and gravel is a big no-no. Repti-bark and Sani-chips are also ideal for substrate. They're also great for spot-cleaning. I think I'll get Aspen because it's been the most advised.

Humidity should be between 35-45%, and I can get a humidity meter (I forgot the term for it.)

I almost forgot, but I'll have a locking screen top for the viv that will be escape-proof!

I won't get into the process of feeding right now but I will have a separate empty tank specifically for feeding.

Whew! I hope I got everything! Now for the odd questions...

a) I've read so much about heating the warm side. Now, here's an odd question... how do I keep the cool side from being too cold without having to adjust my thermostat? Will the UTH on the warm side keep the cool side from dropping down below 70F without making the whole tank the same temp?

b) Where should I actually place the water bowl?! Cool side, warm side, or in the middle?

c) I know there are some reptiles that need misting for moisture, but this is a corn snake and not just "any" reptile. How can I maintain moisture regularly? I know for shedding this is important and during shed I could also leave damp "moss" in the viv.

d) I plan on ordering my snake from VMSherp.com. I hope that this breeding site is great (I've heard great reviews about the owner, Sean). I think what is mostly appealing for me being a newbie is seeing a picture of each snake being sold, and not just the picture of the morph. Most pet shops around here are just poor in quality. I know if I get my corn in the mail, it'll be in a deli cup. I want the poor buddy to be safely moved into his home. Regardless... what is the best method to move my snake into its viv? Should I just place the deli cup inside and sloooowly open the lid, then put the screen on the tank so it doesn't escape?

e) Okay, so my snake just fed. He's all done and is now resting and relaxed. Should I let him rest for an hour or so and then move him back to his viv?

f) ...this isn't an odd question but a fun one... what are your favorite morphs?! I have been drawn to motleys, especially caramel, anery, and charcoal!

Thank you!
-Raynen

 

[Raynen]

(I can't find the edit button) I also forgot to ask if anyone could please post a pic of where the thermometers are in the viv... and maybe a nice pic of their viv and buddies :laugh:

 

[corn snake breeder]

Your ideas seem good but if you are going to maintain a smaller collection I would recommend a few things from my experience.

1. Stick to vivs. It will look nicer and the animals get more room.

2. Might want to try bio active substrate. For my substrate I use peat, sphagnum and pillow moss, coco choir, cypress mulch and zoo meds bark blend. Use plants like chienese evergreens and aloe Vera to help keep the air clean.

3. Basking lights help see the animals and mimic a more natural heat source. I recommend them. Use a bulb that will get a hot spot in the upper eighties but make sure they can cool off in the seventies.

4. Spray daily and change the water.

5. Do your reaserch not just on the snake but also on the breeder. If you can buy from smaller breeders or even better rescues that will be there to help you.

6. Under the natural setups that I use my animals eat less when I offer food. Mostly they will eat every two to four weeks and they grow at a more natural rate. This has not effected there health.

7. Provide natural hides like cork barks and things to climb on like branches. Give them a background of cork bark or repti carpet.

This works for me but not everyone. P.M for some good sources of literature and websites. Good luck on what ever system you use.

 

[The Cat]

Your information seems accurate. I'm glad you didn't just rush in to buying a snake.

I keep my thermometers under the substrate, making it stay with the suction cups they came with.

There isn't an edit button unless you're a contributing member, as the banner at the top of the page says.

Welcome to the forum!!!

 

[The Cat]

Your ideas seem good but if you are going to maintain a smaller collection I would recommend a few things from my experience.

1. Stick to vivs. It will look nicer and the animals get more room.

2. Might want to try bio active substrate. For my substrate I use peat, sphagnum and pillow moss, coco choir, cypress mulch and zoo meds bark blend. Use plants like chienese evergreens and aloe Vera to help keep the air clean.

3. Basking lights help see the animals and mimic a more natural heat source. I recommend them. Use a bulb that will get a hot spot in the upper eighties but make sure they can cool off in the seventies.

4. Spray daily and change the water.

5. Do your reaserch not just on the snake but also on the breeder. If you can buy from smaller breeders or even better rescues that will be there to help you.

6. Under the natural setups that I use my animals eat less when I offer food. Mostly they will eat every two to four weeks and they grow at a more natural rate. This has not effected there health.

7. Provide natural hides like cork barks and things to climb on like branches. Give them a background of cork bark or repti carpet.

This works for me but not everyone. P.M for some good sources of literature and websites. Good luck on what ever system you use.

Lamps are not recommended seeing as snakes use belly heat.

You should change the water every day, but you won't need to spray unless you want to aid a shed.

A background isn't necessary, but they look cool!!

Depending on the age, around one a week is a good schedule to feed.

I second point 5. Not all breeders are good ones. I got into a small argument with one about cohabbing. :/


Sorry to contradict, corn snake breeder.

 

[Nythain]

The Viv!
10 gallon tank and then as an adult, a 20 gallon tank.

Sizes sound good. Though a full grown adult *might* require something with a bit more floor space than a 20L

I live in New England so and Under the Tank Heater is necessary. From what I've gathered, the cool side should be between 73-80F and the warm side should be 80-85F. The lowest temp should never go below 70F and the highest should never go above 90F. The thermometers should be measuring RIGHT above the substrate.

First off, the highest should never reach 90F. 90F is nearing neurological damage temperatures for corns. The highest honestly shouldn't exceed 88 but you really don't even want highs that high. As for measuring location, that is a topic for debate. Popular consensus will have you measure warm side temps on the glass under the substrate above the middle of the UTH. Less popular consensus will have you measure warm side air temp in the warm side hide. The best would be to measure both. The most important one, in most people's opinion, is going to be the glass temp though. This is to prevent potential burning if the corn burrows. Again, much debate about this. I personally don't even measure cool side. My room is 72-75F ambient, plus any gradient warming from warm side, I pretty much know it's not too cold so the temp doesn't matter as much.

I will place one hide on the cool side and one on the warm side. I'll have a water bowl big enough so he (or she xD) can submerge but not too big so he won't be able to escape. As for decor, maybe a few of those silk vine tree things and a "branch" from the pet store (I do not plan to bring anything in the viv from the outside).

Depending on size of enclosure and age of snake you get, you might consider a third hide in the middle. And LOTS of cover and clutter. Cork bark, egg cartons, fake leaves, fake plants. Younger snakes are easily stressed by open environments due to a lack of security. This isn't as important for older or larger snakes though.

Substrate... the great debate (it rhymes, I couldn't help myself!) Basically any cedar, pine, and other tree shavings should be avoided, except Aspen bedding. Sand and gravel is a big no-no. Repti-bark and Sani-chips are also ideal for substrate. They're also great for spot-cleaning. I think I'll get Aspen because it's been the most advised.

You can't go wrong with Aspen. Also, *if* humidity is a concern you can look into cypress mulch or a peat moss. The most important things to always make sure of are A. no Cedar/Pine/Other exceptionally oily woods. B. check and make sure whatever you get isn't treated with ANYTHING. You want the most natural crap mother earth can provide. Other than that, you pretty much have it down and again, you really can't go wrong with Aspen (though if you get a baby you might consider paper towel or newsprint until it gets a little bigger)

Humidity should be between 35-45%, and I can get a humidity meter (I forgot the term for it.)

The term is hygrometer. And don't bother. Unless you personally go through the minor effort of properly calibrating it, you're just wasting money on an inaccurate peace of mind. Humidity shouldn't be a problem unless your new snake has a bad/flaky/dry/broken shed. And even then, temporary measures during the shedding process work well. If for some odd reason you are in an exceptionally dry environment, there are plenty of tricks to increasing humidity. But again, corns can thrive in most *normal* humidity environments ranging from 30%-60%. They're pretty hardy specimens.

I almost forgot, but I'll have a locking screen top for the viv that will be escape-proof!

Only time will tell if it's truly escape-proof. Even the most secure setups have been houdini'd. But yes, locks are a necessity.

[quoteWhew! I hope I got everything! Now for the odd questions...[/quote]

a) I've read so much about heating the warm side. Now, here's an odd question... how do I keep the cool side from being too cold without having to adjust my thermostat? Will the UTH on the warm side keep the cool side from dropping down below 70F without making the whole tank the same temp?

Unless you're in the arctic, ambient room temps plus bleedover heat from UTH gradient will usually more than cover cool side temps.

b) Where should I actually place the water bowl?! Cool side, warm side, or in the middle?

I have mine in the middle. A younger snake might benefit from it being closer to it's preferred hide. And if you happen to have humidity problems, then putting it on the warm side will help slightly as it will heat up and evaporate a very slight bit faster.

c) I know there are some reptiles that need misting for moisture, but this is a corn snake and not just "any" reptile. How can I maintain moisture regularly? I know for shedding this is important and during shed I could also leave damp "moss" in the viv.

This really shouldn't be a problem. But if you find he/she does have a bad shed, you can start a whole new thread (or better yet Search for already existing threads) covering this topic.

d) I plan on ordering my snake from VMSherp.com. I hope that this breeding site is great (I've heard great reviews about the owner, Sean). I think what is mostly appealing for me being a newbie is seeing a picture of each snake being sold, and not just the picture of the morph. Most pet shops around here are just poor in quality. I know if I get my corn in the mail, it'll be in a deli cup. I want the poor buddy to be safely moved into his home. Regardless... what is the best method to move my snake into its viv? Should I just place the deli cup inside and sloooowly open the lid, then put the screen on the tank so it doesn't escape?

Yeah, you can just put the cup in the tank, open it up, and close the screen lid. It will more than likely be too afraid to explore immediately and if it does, it will probably be too busy cruising the perimeter to think of going up. In other words, you should have more than enough time to close the lid and secure it.

e) Okay, so my snake just fed. He's all done and is now resting and relaxed. Should I let him rest for an hour or so and then move him back to his viv?

If he's small enough to feed in the deli cup, you can put it back in, open it up, and let him crawl out on his own. If he's bigger, than a brief handling to place the snake back into the viv shouldn't be enough to stress him out to the point of regurgitating. There's no need to wait an hour unless you just need him to calm down from feeding frenzy.

 

[corn snake breeder]

Lamps are not recommended seeing as snakes use belly heat.

You should change the water every day, but you won't need to spray unless you want to aid a shed.

A background isn't necessary, but they look cool!!

Depending on the age, around one a week is a good schedule to feed.

I second point 5. Not all breeders are good ones. I got into a small argument with one about cohabbing. :/


Sorry to contradict, corn snake breeder.

I agree background is not needed just nice. Lots of breeders are bad just do reaserch. I spray the animals to keep the bio active substrate moving. And just
Curious how do you think snakes get heat in the wild? They don't exactly have heat pads below them but they get heat from the sun.

 

[AliCat37]

I agree background is not needed just nice. Lots of breeders are bad just do reaserch. I spray the animals to keep the bio active substrate moving. And just
Curious how do you think snakes get heat in the wild? They don't exactly have heat pads below them but they get heat from the sun.

Snakes aren't usually out in the day time though,
Generally, they will come out around dusk or early evening/night when the ground is warm from the day. So they are getting belly heat, as opposed to basking like lizards.

 

[corn snake breeder]

Well a good portion of my snakes use basking lights and are often basking thought the day and climbing in branches in their set ups. And when we travel up to my uncles land we find snakes basking in branches on his property. I also find it is discouraging to new hobbyists when there snakes are always hiding because they don't interact with there enviorment. In natural vivs my snakes are more active then they where in the LAM method of aspen and newspaper. I will quote the author of the art of keeping snakes you can keep snakes in a tub with aspen and newspaper a water bowl and a hide... And you will just as much fun keeping this animal as you would a mouse.

 

[Nythain]

Belly heat is a topic of active debate. Many put a LOT of faith in it alone, when basking belly heat is worse overall than warm air temperatures. A snake definitely thermoregulates through more of it's body than it's belly. And using just a UTH for "belly heat" creates nothing more than a ground level basking spot that a snake is less likely to leave if the surrounding air temperatures aren't warm enough. This can lead to obesity and other health problems.

Not discrediting belly heat, and it's added benefits to digestion in terrestrial animals. But if I had to pick between 84F room air temp or just an 84F hotspot created by a UTH, I'd go with the air temperature. Proper ambient temperatures are just as, if not more important than an adequate source of belly heat.

 

[Raynen]

Thank you so much for the replies!! Taking care of animals is complicated and some people just don't care I hope I can find a more local breeder, I've tried googling but to no avail.

As for the heating, my concern is the change of temperature without a steady change. New England has been funky! In March it can be snowing and then the temperature can reach up to 55F degrees! Air temperature might work in spring and fall but it would be a bit difficult to regulate the same temperature in the Summer and Winter seasons. Heat regulating is quite a debate; I'd be really nervous "experimenting" with heat with my snake.

Thank you again for the replies!! I'll try to be prepared but it'll probably also depend on my snake!!

 

[smigon]

I disagree with a lot of what corn snake breeder says, and Nythain has backed up my personal opinions for the most part.

I think aspen is the best substrate to use, although if you are getting a baby you may want to use paper towels, you will much more easily see any mess they make and can know their time from eating to pooping.

I personally think the thermometer probe belongs on the bottom of the tank, UNDER the substrate, directly over the UTH. It should be at 85, the cool side will be around 75 but I don't measure the cool side either, the snake knows where it is comfortable and I am just preventing them from burning themselves if they burrow and are on glass that is too hot.

Feeding every 2-4 weeks? No, even fully grown adults will eat at the longest every 2 weeks. Babies will need more nutrition more often. Here is a link to the Munson plan, a basic chart for what size mouse for what size snake. It has worked for most here, I don't know of many people who don't use this. http://www.medusa-corns.webs.com/feedingchart.htm

I live in the desert, and I don't mist at all. I have only had one bad shed, and the stickies at the top of the forum and by searching "bad shed" will help you get through that problem if it does arise. Also, misting causes mold or mildew to form, which can be dangerous to you and your snake.

I would read some books on corns, the two I highly recommend are the ones by Kathy Love and one by Don Soderberg. Both are members here and some of the most highly regarded snake breeders in the industry.

I love your enthusiasm, and I am so glad you posted. You will get varying opinions on some things, but temps and feeding schedules are pretty standard. One thing I know people differ on (but I think most are coming around) is to NEVER cohab the snakes. Corns are cannibalistic and it has been proven time and time again that they WILL eat each other. Here is a link to the sticky at the top of this forum, read it and all the stickies there, you will learn a lot. http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=118182

As for morphs, it is totally a personal choice. My first was a fire, I was blown away by the red and orange colors. I just rescued a full grown normal, he has beautiful colors, and on Tuesday I am receiving another rescue that is totally white, so once you have one, you will want to try all the "flavors"!

Good luck, and don't hesitate to ask any more questions!

 

[smigon]

And just Curious how do you think snakes get heat in the wild? They don't exactly have heat pads below them but they get heat from the sun.

They like the evenings when the sun is just setting and the ground is still warm. They prefer the belly heat, it also helps with digestion, and heat lamps so close to the snake just "bake" it which can dry them out and cause bad sheds. Some snakes do prefer basking, corns just are not one of them. They are nocturnal, so they are more active at night, which supports the theory that they do not prefer overhead lighting. Also, corns in the wild are found hiding in rural areas, they got their names partly from being found on farms where the grain is stored or grown and plenty of rodents are there for the taking.

 

[Raynen]

Thank you so much! I'll be getting the books this week and reading them five time a week :rofl: Co-hab sounds so scary! I knew if I ended up with more than one snake I would have been waaay too paranoid to keep them together and your advice has definitely solidified that. I'm about to check out the stickies right now. Oh and the Munson plan is genius! I was wondering how I would know since I'm new to snakes in general. Oh and what are the "names" of snake ages, as in after hatchling, what's the next stage? I don't even know how long a hatchling is still called a hatchling :laugh:

 

[smigon]

Thank you so much! I'll be getting the books this week and reading them five time a week :rofl: Co-hab sounds so scary! I knew if I ended up with more than one snake I would have been waaay too paranoid to keep them together and your advice has definitely solidified that. I'm about to check out the stickies right now. Oh and the Munson plan is genius! I was wondering how I would know since I'm new to snakes in general. Oh and what are the "names" of snake ages, as in after hatchling, what's the next stage? I don't even know how long a hatchling is still called a hatchling :laugh:

I really am excited for you, so many people put the snake before the viv (like putting the cart before the horse!) but you are being so thorough that I know you will make a great corn parent.

As far as the stages go, the ones I know of are hatchling, yearling, sub-adult, adult. Hatchlings are up to one year, yearlings are 1-2, sub-adult is 2-3 and adult is 3 on up. If anyone disagrees with this, PLEASE chime in, I couldn't find any solid proof on the years, but they make sense to me. And you can't always trust what you read!

Basically, get a really good digital scale that measures in grams, and keep a record of your snake's weight before feeding, what they ate, if they were blue (getting ready to shed), etc. I have a large tupperware container that I put on my scale before turning it on, it zeros out even though there is a container on it, but then when I put my snake in it tells me his exact weight.

I have 3 corns currently, exactly the same age, all about 2 years and 4 months. One is about 87g, one is 186g (she has been on the Munson plan all her life, my first corn Scarlett) and one that I just rescued who was "power fed" and is on rats who is 786g. The size difference is staggering, the smallest guy I rescued (Gus) from a girl who fed him pinkies only once a week for the first 1.5 years of his life. He was 25g when I got him (as opposed to Scarlett's 75 at the time (she was 25g when I got her and she was just barely a year old, at this point she was 1.5 years), within 7 months he has gained 62g on the Munson plan and is happy and healthy.

Now my big guy, I don't know his exact diet from hatchling, but he was obviously fed large portions often (I was told one small rat/week). Rats are very high in fat content, so the largest mice should be fine for your corn once he reaches that weight. He isn't fat, which is very good, but I found it hard to believe he was 4 feet long and this heavy and only 2 years old, but I can only go on what the previous owner tells me, and she had purchased him for her teenagers so I tend to believe her. I have fed him twice now, every 10 days, one rat like he is used to, his next meal will be the largest mouse I can get. He has gained nearly 28g in the almost 3 weeks he has been here, but then some corns do get bigger than others! I don't like the idea of feeding rats, but if that is what he requires to stay healthy, rats it will be.

Basically what I am saying is that go by the Munson plan, use the weight of the snake, not the age, to determine what size mouse to feed him. All three of mine are on different sizes, but all the same age!

A good rule of thumb is to feed your snake a mouse that is 1.5 times the biggest width of your snake. So if your corn is 1" wide, a 1.5" wide mouse will be perfect.

Not everyone tracks their snake's progress, I just bought one of those old school Composition books and track the date, weight of the snake, size of the mouse and condition of the snake, when they shed. If I feed one and it doesn't eat it I put a line through the size of the mouse, that lets me know it didn't eat that day. When they shed, I write SHED in large letters and circle it.

Hope this helps!

 

[Nythain]

Concerning ages, you could fit "Juvenile" in probably 6mo-2yrs, it's a hard phrase to give specifics to. I do feel there needs to be something between hatchling and yearling though as there is a MASSIVE difference in husbandry tolerance and care between 2mo and 6mo+. It's also around the "fuzzy" stage when a snake starts to spurt in growth, making a noticeable physical difference between a hatchling and a 6mo+.

I would personally use "Juvenile" in place of "Yearling" and limit yearling to something more specifically almost exactly a year, but that's personal opinion and usage and no way shape or form the standard.

 

[Raynen]

I'll definitely follow the Munson plan! It seems more reliable than trying to measure how wide my snake is and just trying to "eye" it out! Do you have a specific scale you'd recommend?

Thanks for the help an advice! I can't wait to have my corn

 

[smigon]

Concerning ages, you could fit "Juvenile" in probably 6mo-2yrs, it's a hard phrase to give specifics to. I do feel there needs to be something between hatchling and yearling though as there is a MASSIVE difference in husbandry tolerance and care between 2mo and 6mo+. It's also around the "fuzzy" stage when a snake starts to spurt in growth, making a noticeable physical difference between a hatchling and a 6mo+.

I would personally use "Juvenile" in place of "Yearling" and limit yearling to something more specifically almost exactly a year, but that's personal opinion and usage and no way shape or form the standard.

Yup, forgot "Juvies"! I agree, there is no set standard that you can say for sure what stage your corn is in. Go with the Munson plan, so when your snake does begin a growth spurt you won't be confused as to what size to feed.

Here is the link to the scale I bought from Amazon. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00FJFJDGS/ref=cfb_at_prodpg

 

[corn snake breeder]

Feeding under a more natural schedule has improved the help of my animals. For any and all that disagree with me you all have the right to be wrong. Read the art of keeping snakes see what the author says. Below is a list of species I have kept under this system many of which I would be amassed anyone could keep under a laboratory animal method. My personal feeling is we should replicate wild settings as best as possible. We are reducing the hobby to a collection of stamps and pined butterfly's that we take out and look at.

The hard ones
5.5 rebelly snakes (feed once a week on crickets, fish, and worms)
5.5 dekay snakes (feed once a week on crickets, worms and fish)
2.2 racers (feed once every two weeks on snakes, lizards, frogs, toads salamanders, mice and chicks)
1.1 whip snakes (feed once every two weeks on lizards, rodents, chicks, salamanders, frogs toads and mice with the healthy dose of occasional feeder snake)
2.2 mock vipers (feed once every week on lizards and chick parts)
2.2 Asian garters ( feed once a week in amphibians, mice, fish an worms)
2.2 Asian birdle snakes (feed on lizards and frogs)
2.2 Monkey anoles (feed daily on bugs)
1.2 uromastyx (feed daily on salad fruit once a wek on bugs)

Even common corns, kings, rats, and garters thrive under these setups. Basking lights good. Natural feeding setups good. Natural bedding good. People don't realize the benefits of these setups. Read the art of keeping snakes see where I am coming from. Like the author of the book says: you can keep a snake in a tub with newspaper, a water bowl and a hide and it will be just as much fun keeping a mouse. And if you want to be wrong have fun:nyah:.

 

[corn snake breeder]

And I am almost fished with my rant.
1. How often do you think snakes get mice in the wild? Every week ummmmmm NO.

2. What are they on in the wild what is the name... OH, what about bioactive substrate.

3. What is surrounding them PLANTS. They clean the air and keep bedding fresh.

4. Mold and mildew you have to be kidding me there should be (I say should because most people get it wrong) a good bioactive substrate that will clean.

Before smigdon comments on my previous post's spelling I will rewrite it. You can keep a snake in a tub with newspaper and a water bowl and heat tape and hide and it will be just like keeping the mouse.