The Feds attack us yet again...

[kathylove]

Unfortunately, when the population is in the hundreds of millions, there will ALWAYS be irresponsible people doing just about everything - keeping animals of all kinds, driving, hunting, having children, working in every different career you can think of - it is just the way SOME humans are. Unless you have a very small group, you have no chance of weeding out all of the irresponsible people from any group doing any hobby or occupation.

It is true that here in Florida, the problem was certainly not helped by dealers selling baby Burmese and African rock pythons, among others, to 12 year old kids at expos. I have seen that myself, and some of our herp societies tried discussing it with expo promoters. We never made much headway. So there is no question that "we" were partly to blame. But I don't feel that "we" should lump together responsible keepers with those dealers and their customers anymore than I (as a responsible driver) should be lumped in with drunken drivers who kill people. Just how far can we go to stop people from doing stupid things that are legal? And how much should responsible people in a given group be punished because there are also irresponsible people in the same group? Keep in mind just how well some laws work (drug laws?) and the unintended consequences of many laws.

 

[kathylove]

"QUESTION--- would you pay $100 to keep your animals and stop the irresponsible owners ruining our hobby."

Do you mean the annual $100 fee (which I already pay to keep venomous snakes - seems they just added big snakes to our license, more or less) to keep the BIG 5? If so, how will paying it prevent the irresponsible people who refuse to pay and just go underground, help prevent the ruination of our hobby?

Most of the people on this forum are going to be the more responsible types who don't cause problems, and are more likely to pay for required permits. How will the expensive permit help change the irresponsible person who won't participate and who may release his snake in the future?

 

[snakewispera snr]

MICRO CHIPS

 

[kathylove]

Yes, I forgot to mention about the microchips. This is all new for Florida, and I don't currently keep big snakes, and there were some last minute changes in the new law. So I may not be 100% correct. Florida wanted to require microchips for all of the big snakes, plus the venomous snakes. But I believe the end result is that venomous will have photo records (liability, and the difficulty of finding vets to chip venomous), and the big snakes over a certain size (2', I think?) will be microchipped. So as far as I know, this has been addressed by Florida as well.

I have no problem with laws that pretty much accomplish what they set out to do, and accomplish great public good for relatively small loss of freedom. And that end up with few unwanted, unintended side effects.

If Florida had passed the law we now have, but kept the fee reasonable enough (maybe $25 - $50) that few would risk going underground because the risk of getting caught would be too comparatively high, (it would be easier to pay the small fee), then I would find the law more useful. And I think the unintended side effects would have been much smaller. Actually, even a free permit would have had the effect of nobody buying the snakes on impulse at shows or at shops, which would have pretty much solved the problem. I believe impulse purchases were the main problem in this whole big snake problem.

But no matter what Florida and other states do, we don't need the Federal government do add more on top of it.

 

[kathylove]

UPDATE: PIJAC (Pet Industry Joint Advisory Council) has just advised that we hold our comments (if you haven't already sent them) until they finish their research into the questions that F & W is asking for answers on. Once PIJAC has the relevant info, they will let us know the results so we can incorporate it into our responses.

 

[tricksterpup]

I just wanted to add something here about the stupid invasion of Burmese Pythons.. I do not know if this is a coincidence but its pretty close when this article posted.
http://cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63751&highlight=silly+article

Here is the actual Article by the U.S. Geological Survey thats causing all the ruckus. http://www.usgs.gov/newsroom/article.asp?ID=1875

Now is this the Governments way of getting public approval by scaring half of the United States? Next we are going to find out That pythons are Weapons of Mass Destruction and are terrorists to boot and we need to declare war on them.
All sarcasm aside, I think it may be a underhanded way of getting public approval for a mass regulation banning.

 

[aameenah]

Did anyone catch the panel discussion on kingsnake.com tonight? I just heard about it now (description from KS)

The U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service has made a significant move towards banning
the importation and interstate transport of Boa Constrictors and Pythons in
the United States. Quietly published in the Federal Register, the agency is
accepting public comments until April 30. If enacted this will devastate an
already hard hit industry, dealing a fatal death blow to a large number of
businesses dependent on this segment of the industry and drying up the
supply of these pets to pet owners across the United States.

"SUMMARY: We, the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (Service or We), are
reviewing available biological and economic information on constrictor
snakes in the Python, Boa and Eunectes genera for possible addition to the
list of injurious wildlife under the Lacey Act. The importation and
introduction of constrictor snakes into the natural ecosystems of the United
States may pose a threat to the interests of agriculture, horticulture,
forestry; to the health and welfare of human beings; and to the welfare and
survival of wildlife and wildlife resources in the United States. An
injurious wildlife listing would prohibit the importation into, or
transportation between, States, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth
of Puerto Rico, or any territory or possession of the United States by any
means, without a permit. Permits may be issued for scientific, medical,
educational, or zoological purposes. This document seeks comments from the
public to aid in determining if a proposed rule is warranted." -
http://www.fws.gov/policy/library/E8-1770.html

Confirmed panelists are:

* Marshall Meyers - PIJAC
* Russ Case - Reptiles Magazine
* David/Tracy Barker - Vida Preciosa Intl.
* Kamuran Tepedelen - Bushmaster Reptiles
* Kevin McCurley - N.E.R.D.
* Jeff Ronne - The Boaphile
* Rich Ihle - Salmonboa.com
* Ralph Davis - Ralph Davis Reptiles
* Trooper Walsh - Zoo Genesis, LLC
* Jeff Barringer - kingsnake.com
* USF&W Service - Erin Williams
* U.S. Geological Survey - invited, unconfirmed
* Brian Sharp - Brian Sharp Reptiles
* Bill Brandt - Gourmet Rodent
* Wayne Hill - National Reptile Breeders Expo
* Bob Clark - Bob Clark Reptiles
* Brian Potter - NARBC/Chicago Reptile House
* Donald Schultz - T-Rex Products




I'd love to see a transcript of this.

 

[draco_0420]

I've left a comment. But you know, I don't even have a " large " snake really. Just a king and a corn, but we all know that it won't stop with large boas and pythons.Snake owners are getting a bad rep everywhere. For example, I work at a Wal-Mart Supercenter that employs over 200 people. I've met the vast majority of them, and in the break room, the subject of pets will come up. I'll naturally start talking about my little babies ( Draco and Godric ) and I get the same reaction: " The only good snake is a dead snake " is a popular phrase thrown around. I just don't get it really.

 

[The Nothing]

PIJAC will be our biggest supporter.


I logged into the discussion panel last night. I knew better than to expect too much, and came away even more disappointed with the majority reptile breeders selected to represent us. Disrespectful, unruly, and even ignorant to the issue to boot! Fortunately the representative for PIJAC, The Barkers, and Erin Williams (USFW) managed to work around the other individuals as best as possible.

All in all it really seemed like a pissing match that got absolutely nothing accomplished. USFW said "send us info". PIJAC said "send us info." The Barkers asked "what do you want to know"

 

[tricksterpup]

I logged into the discussion panel last night. I knew better than to expect too much, and came away even more disappointed with the majority reptile breeders selected to represent us. Disrespectful, unruly, and even ignorant to the issue to boot! Fortunately the representative for PIJAC, The Barkers, and Erin Williams (USFW) managed to work around the other individuals as best as possible.

All in all it really seemed like a pissing match that got absolutely nothing accomplished. USFW said "send us info". PIJAC said "send us info." The Barkers asked "what do you want to know"

Well its a shame that many were not being professional about it and have an orderly discussion. If the trade industry is to stay viable, Its up to us and many of the common people to step up and be heard.

But I do find it amusing as I stated before the U.S. Geological Survey article about how the climate and weather change is making easier for the pythons to live in our country. It just seemed to pop up the same time as this regulation did.

As who will this effect? Well the way its written, me as a burm owner, nothing. I own my snake and plan not to travel out of state with it. This isn't going to effect those small time breeders who live in your state and only sell locally. You do not need to get a permit for an in state purchase. I view this to be just like the Permit you will need to get an Indigo.
It hasn't stopped many of us wanting one and those who want one to get one.

What was interesting, I talked to a few of our Herp society members, one who also works for the DNR; we felt that this will drive the hobby of larger boids underground. Trust me, there are enough animals out there for local breeders not to have their gene stock go stagnant. Seriously, who is going to know what you keep in your house.

Sadly, I had a boy here on this site argue and got pissed with me cause he lived in St. Paul Minnesota and I told him he needed a permit to own his corn snake. That city has a regulation on reptiles and especially snakes along with Exotic animals. He said no store told him he needed a permit. Well petco employees know nothing and the other store, where he got his snake, well I am sure he didn't really ask and never told his parents. I let it go, it doesn't matter because know one will know that this 15-16 year old boy has a corn snake in his bed room.

 

[Nomed]

It doesn't matter because know one will know that this 15-16 year old boy has a corn snake in his bed room.

Thats exactly what I was thinking. Keeping exotic pets that are require licences or permits is something thats extremely easy to get away with. You never just have random checks by the local police officers to see if you are keeping any animals illegally. Hell, I've known people who have gotten away with keeping a hot without a licence. Also what you said about the pet stores, they dont care. Thats simply the problem is that they just dont give two s**ts once the animal leaves their store and the money is in their pocket, not like most really care when the animal is in their store anyway... I'm praying to get a job in the reptile department of my LPS in a few months when I am old enough to apply. The store deffitnally needs help with caring for their animals, and hopefully I could stop a few idiots from making a purchase they wont be able to deal with once it grows. Again I'll repeat I think ending sales in petstores would solve a large percentage of the problem. Most irresponcible pet owners just walk into a petstore one day and go "hmm that would be so cool to own". They end up not knowing a thing about how to care for the exotic animal properly and it either dies in their care or they end up releasing it into the wild. Its something that can be easily solved, either completely STOP the sales in petstores OR require and actually INFORCE a law requiring afforadable permits. I would be willing to bet almost all of us on this site who are serious about keeping herps would either find a new home for the snake we can not care for anymore, put it up for adoption, or even surrunder it to a petstore if we had to.

 

[chicelias]

Done. Good suggestion.

I don't get it. Cats breed like rats; they're super-adaptable, highly-evolved killing machines that put native species in jeopardy wherever they are introduced. But because they're fwuffy and people wuv them, there's almost no restrictions on them. In most places, you're ALLOWED to let these animals out to destroy the local fauna. Most people don't like snakes, and they don't keep them, so they would support this sort of measure without thinking twice. Have you ever had a cat that was REALLY mad at you, and intent on injuring you? I have. Nothing like a mouthful of daggers and 20 razor-sharp scalpels going at you. I'll take the p.o.'d 8-foot boa.

Of course, there are many herpers who don't do much to encourage sympathy for our cause. Youtube's full of stupidity that could easily be used as ammo against us...

i know this was posted two months ago but i just had to reply because i agree with you on the cat thing. i don't hink that cat's should be banned or anything but what i don't understand is how one animal is seen as dangerous and the other as cute. i mean, i'd rather get bitten by a snake than a cat anyday, lol. i just had to reply because i was just having this conversation with a sister of mine.

 

[Voodoo]

It is unfortunate that our government seeks to instate laws that prohibit ownership of certain snakes and other animals. This simply forces many breeders, retailers, and keepers underground and creates a larger problem than what previously existed. Look at Thailand. There are markets there where the sale of certain animals (including many threatened and endangered species) is illegal. The problem is that it's nearly impossible to catch people selling these illegal animals, because as soon as the police or wildlife agents show up, word spreads through the markets fast enough for the shop owners to close shop and leave the area before they can be investigated.

The only way the Thai police can enter a shop the suspect is selling illegal animals is if the also spot a native Thai animal also being sold in the same store.

Do we want this going on in the US more so than it already is? Does the US government believe that banning the sale and ownership of certain snakes will actually prevent people from selling and owning them? That's laughable at best.

What the people need is education, not more laws which only cause more underground activity. The truth is there is no simple answer, but educating people does go a long way.

I know many pythons and boas are released by their owners once the owners realize how huge their snakes are growing. These foreign species of constrictors do pose a threat to the native wildlife. Any predator that is introduced into a different environment will have a trickle-down effect on the entire ecosystem below it. This means that things can really get messy just by introducing a few breeding pairs of non-native apex predators.

Kathy makes some good points about feral cats causing far more damage than boids. Very true. The same can be said about feral dogs as well. The US government knows they could never ban cats and dogs...but reptiles are another story.

I can see both sides of this argument. There are definitely existing environmental issues that have been brought on by the release of non-native species of snakes into our ecosystem. But banning the sale and ownership of these reptiles is not going to repair any of the damage already done, nor will it stop people from going underground.

Perhaps what the government should do is create a greater number of environmental jobs that deal in the capture of non-native species. These animals could then be released back into their own native habitats, since they are already accustomed to living in the wild. Yeah, I know... that's a stretch... But think of the good that could come from a program like that.

The reintroduction of the once native grey wolf into YellowStone National Park has shown that the entire ecosystem has benefited, even though the grey wolf had been completely hunted out of that area and had not inhabited that land for over 70 years.

I thin our government needs to shift its stance on issues involving wildlife and the pet trade industry. This shift needs to move away from simply banning citizens from owning animals to fixing and maintaining our native ecologies by removing threatening non-native species. After all, they can pass all the laws they want, but people are still going to break those laws and the actual problem will continue to grow out of proportion.

 

[Prairie Orca]

I've sent a piece of my mind to the regulations:

I am downright appalled at the fact that owners of pythons and boas have to be
so concerned with their pets and companions. Banning the snakes will most
definitely cause an uproar from animal lovers, worldwide. Myself included.

If one is concerned for the safety in owning a boa or python, simply indulge
oneself in educating those of concern. Also, blowing the facts out of proportion
will only make things worse—keep that in mind.

For the sake of the animal lovers, let us keep our beloved friends.

I wrote it in a way, as if I were one of the people threatened by the potential ban. So it came out more... interesting.

 

[phicks48]

Talk about irresponsible i was at the mallthe other day and here comes this guy about 40 id say with a 8 foot Burm Wraped around his shoulders women and kids were runing out of the way one women fell down. i called the animal control and they came and took the snake . and he was arested for reckless endagremt . i am all so a snake keeper i have 2 red tails plus corns and kings. but its people like this guy that start a lot of the trouble for the good reptile keepers . Paul Hicks

 

[Emanon]

one freedom/liberty at a time the governments of the world are creeping in. USA included. This is only one chink in the chain of injustices and I am sick of it. This revolution will not be televised because the media is just a little secret society puppet... and to add a little more fuel to this fire... rent or buy America, Freedom to Fascism... watch it...

 

[kathylove]

The average citizen is very happy to give up whatever freedom is asked for, and to give more power to the government, to keep him / her (and their children) safe from drugs, terrorism, giant, man-eating pythons, or whatever other scary things media and government employees publicize the most for public consumption.

We have lost a lot of citizen rights, and the government has gained A LOT of power, so I assume we are now safe from all of those threats, plus any other safety concerns we may have?

 

[Voodoo]

The average citizen is very happy to give up whatever freedom is asked for, and to give more power to the government, to keep him / her (and their children) safe from drugs, terrorism, giant, man-eating pythons, or whatever other scary things media and government employees publicize the most for public consumption.

We have lost a lot of citizen rights, and the government has gained A LOT of power, so I assume we are now safe from all of those threats, plus any other safety concerns we may have?

How true, Kathy!

I'm so glad our government saved us from the threat Iraq was presenting us...??? ...of course, I'm still trying to figure out what that threat actually was/is. Perhaps they are all hiding their man-eating pythons in the same place as their so called weapons of mass destruction?

:shrugs:

 

[phicks48]

i hope after MR Bushes Term is done that the UN Brings War Crime Charges agaist him. Why Not? We Have Done it to other countrys for starting a war for no reason. paul H

 

[or1olesfan]

did the bill get passed?