Tiny-eyed corns, what to do?

[Kat]

If you've been following my thread in the Photo Gallery section, you know I've hatched out a bunch of corns with smaller than normal eyes. They otherwise appear to be healthy and alert, but the eyes are definitely smaller than those of a normal hatchling.

My initial reaction was just to see what hatched and to chuck anybody with tiny eyes into the freezer for the Long Nap. After posting the pics and going through the thread, it seems that I may be too premature in deciding to cull these hatchlings. Or I may not.

Ergo, I'm asking the forum's opinion. What should I do with the small-eyed corns?

(Here's the other thread for reference.)
http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38147

-Kat

 

[zwyatt]

I voted to sell 'em like any other. However, I think it might be worth it just to hang on to them for a while just to make sure that everything seems normal for a just a bit longer than you might with a regular hatchling.
If they seem fine right out of the egg (no problems with eyesight or anything else), then I would imagine that they are probably good to go. I suppose it's always possible that something could happen down the line, but there's no way to know that.


It does seem pretty interesting that it's an obvious trait shared by clutchmates. I've never heard anything about tiny eyes before and now suddenly there's tiny-eyed sibs...wonder what's going on in those genes.

 

[rushrulz]

Considering how hard it was for people to guess, I don't think it's too big a deal. But yeah, make sure they don't have any other problems and then sell them on. But then I'm not a breeder or anything...

 

[ghosthousecorns]

I couldn't tell the difference in your other thread. Maybe it's more noticeable IRL. I can hardly believe there's people voting 'eww freeze it' but I hope they are joking.
My honest opinion, which I am not sure if you will like, is that you are making a bigger deal out of this than you need to. Nobody could tell on your other thread what the defect was until you pointed it out. If they feed OK and seem healthy after a few meals just sell them, unless you want to hang onto them for breeding trials or anything. If you feel they are inferior or only pet quality tell the potential buyer what your concern is. Just my .02

 

[SnakeCreations]

Hey Kat -

I have been following that thread! IMO I certainly wouldn't cull the hatchlings if they don't exhibit any other problems. Especially if they have a good feeding response...

just my .02

-Tonya

 

[Russell]

my two bits.

The last month and a half I've been having stuff hatch out and getting them going. In some I'd find a little bump in the spine. A kink. Then the Ambers were hatching. Some had oddly enlarged bottom jaws. Some had one eye smaller than the other, sounding very much like your tiny eye thing, only just one eye affected.

All these babies would probably have gone on to lead perfectly normal lives. BUT! they were defective thus I'd HAVE to give them away. The wholesaler that I work with doesn't pay for these. But says he'll give them to his kids. To which, I've watched as the years have gone by now, they raise these snakes up. And they breed them, and they have babies. Now who's out on this deal? Why should I be giving away or discounting these babies, when I'm having enough trouble selling the babies that are perfectly normal in every way?

I can try to say, oh, take this baby for free, but only for a pet till I'm blue in the face. I tried that with an adult candy cane female last year. I told the guy she won't lay eggs. Well what's he tell me this last month, after he had taken her for his kid "as a pet" never to be bothered for breeding? He told me he went ahead and tried her anyhow with seven different males but she didn't lay an egg. I tell you the only thing really on that guys mind was, oh let's see what I can get for nothing! After I had bought her as a hatchling from a big breeder on this forum at high end candy cane price, but she wouldn't breed for me.

But this is about hatchlings! With the HUGE number of hatchlings out there already sitting waiting for buyers, can we, as breeders, really afford to be giving stuff away, that yes, probably will live perfect lives. BUT, because it is, "defective" we probably give them away, or sell at some big discount, and the person who gets them breeds anyway, and gets babies. When we had to work hard to pay for the adults we had and the work we did put into those babies?

Well this year I have a deli cup full of "deformed" and non eaters, and poor doers. I won't be letting someone get something for nothing, or a special deal of sorts. Or have anyone whining when that something they got for cheapo or heck, who knows, they might whine if they got it free, when it dies on them!

I guess I'm just a old cold hearted man, and darn proud to be one of the few who couldn't hit that freeze em! slot fast enough! LOL!
:sobstory:

 

[SnakeCreations]

Russell - when you make the point that way, it really does make sense. And, for the record, I don't think you are cold-hearted - if anything, simply realistic about maintaining the standards of corns available. As long as there is no way to insure that the people you sell your "pet only" hatchlings to won't breed them, then I agree with you. However, in Kats case, the eyes are symmetrical and only so small that most didn't pick up that they were "wrong". Don't you think she should wait? Or are the physical attributes typically unchanged and therefore unalterable? I think of the bug-eyed Leucistic Rats - not pretty, imo. Would this be how that particular gene got in the pool? Because I don't like them, does that mean then that they should all be culled?

It's a shame that there are people who are only out to make a fast buck. Hopefully they are not around long because this gig is not easily profitable, as we all know.

Just some thoughts and my attempt to wrap my brain around this.

-Tonya

 

[sfaoldguy]

This newbs opinion...

I voted to sell at discount but want to add to that and possibly change my vote.

I don't think it means much that others did not notice it in the pictures. You obviously noticed the irregularity in person very quickly. The pic with the ruler made it much more obvious also. Selling these corns as being normal without telling the buyer is unethical.

I was inclined to say cull them because that is not within normal variations but then again many of the morphs out there are not within "normal, natural variations".

I would keep the corns and test their site and study their "quality" of life as best I could. I would by no means sell them until I was confident that they did not have any other unseen health issues.

In short, I would treat them as any other morph, just instead of color or pattern, it would be eye size. If their site and health is not effected, I would sell them as "tiny eyed butter corns". If they are not healthy, they would be king food.

 

[Serpwidgets]

What kind of relationship in eye size between the parents/hatchlings is there? I mean do both parents have normal eye size? Do all of the hatchilngs have these smaller eyes, or do some have normal sized eyes?

All of the genetic morphs we work with are deformities. If it causes some kind of problems for the snake, or is a "bad" deformity, I could see culling them. I don't think that's true in this case, but this is all obviously a matter of opinion. :shrugs:

The other consideration is that they might grow into the "correct" proportion, so I think it would be worthwhile at this point to at least keep a couple of them to find out if this is heritable (if it is, then you should know where else this gene is present or possibly present) and to find out how they develop. Also worth considering, are there other characteristics that tag along with it but haven't been noticed yet?

 

[Russell]

hmmm...

Is it the Caramel gene that this is showing up in? Your butter...my amber? coincidence? It bears watching. I just thought it was a heat related thing. But now I'm curious... And next year I'm actually crossing the Amber to something else, so the outcrossed babies probably won't show problems. But if it's just what I found this year, yes it's something you notice! So yeah maybe newbies at a show won't notice, but what if they do later on? I guess I took a diff approach to this mess. If my Leucistic texas rat babies were popping out with some real bug eyed ones, you can bet they'd be put down!

But yes, I certainly do see and agree with many points made here. Now I'm going to go look at my two adults...

 

[Kat]

Here's the fun part. ALL of the hatchlings that have hatched and/or pipped far enough to see the eye are showing the small-eye effect. Neither parent seems to show it.

The other characteristics in common amongst all the hatchlings are the larger body size (about twice as thick as a normal hatchling)... and the appearance of a shorter body length. I haven't measured to see if this is just an optical illusion due to the girth or if it's an actual average length difference.

Mom has the same physical body shape (overall thicker than normal), but a normal-sized eye. I don't recall either parent having small eyes as a hatchling.

The fact that the eye size is prevalant throughout the entire clutch kinda rules out 'hidden genes'... unless Murphy decided to really mess with the odds.

I'm gonna bring a few of the hatchlings down with me next time I go down to Sean's... and see what he thinks.

-Kat

 

[Kat]

Is it the Caramel gene that this is showing up in? Your butter...my amber? coincidence? It bears watching. I just thought it was a heat related thing.

Doubt it. The grandmom's an amber, and she throws decent caramels. It's possible that it has something to do with the pair I used for this breeding both being first-timers.

-Kat

 

[Snowfyre]

Kat, originator of the new PYTHON corns

Seriously though, I noticed the small eyes, wide bodied bit with the small eyes I hatched the one time. Wish the cats hadn't gotten that clutch. I want to see what happens as they're raised up.

 

[Kat]

Here's a pic of mom as a hatchling. Looks perfectly normal to me.

http://www.cornsnakes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6537&highlight=caramel

And dad as a hatchling. Nothing odd there either.

http://home.earthlink.net/~evilkat/septsnakes/auntie.jpg

-Kat

 

[Serpwidgets]

Interesting.

I may have gotten the small eyes thing before. If so, I've never noticed it though. :shrugs:

What I have seen is the "football player" hatchlings... they're thick, built like linebackers, LOL. They are almost like halfway between a corn and king because the neck is so thick compared to typical corn hatchlings. Seems like they were shorter, too, but that might have been an illusion. Socrates was one of those, and when bred back to mom there weren't any football players.

Also, whenever I've gotten those there were just one or two mixed into a whole clutch of regular hatchlings.

I've also gotten hatchlings that seemed like they were an extra inch longer (but the same thickness) and actually I'd love to get more of those. They are so sleek and beautiful like that. Most of them came from Floyd, who was also a very "long" cornsnake.

 

[Plissken]

If the animals are healthy and seem happy as any other hatchling would do, then treat them like normal snakes. No offence to anyone, but I think anyone who would freeze an otherwise healthy animal just because it isn't "perfect", is barbaric. I live in a world where life is valued far higher than how much I can get for each clutch.

And I did say no offence to anyone, before anyone gets upset...

 

[Kat]

What I have seen is the "football player" hatchlings... they're thick, built like linebackers, LOL. They are almost like halfway between a corn and king because the neck is so thick compared to typical corn hatchlings. Seems like they were shorter, too, but that might have been an illusion.

Certainly the mom has that look, as an adult atleast. She's a much heftier corn than most of the other ones I have.

-Kat

 

[Roy Munson]

No offence to anyone, but I think anyone who would freeze an otherwise healthy animal just because it isn't "perfect", is barbaric.

Barbaric? You sure that's the right word? Viable, but defective offspring don't do the species any favors. If snakes were spayed or neutered, then I guess it would be different, buy they're not.

I live in a world where life is valued far higher than how much I can get for each clutch.

"... with flowery meadows, and rainbow skies, and rivers made of chocolate, where the children danced and laughed and played with gumdrop smiles."

Just curious, how many times have you had to make these kinds of decisions? I don't like your implication that those who euthanize defective hatchlings are money-grubbing barbarians. You may have written "no offense", but that doesn't mean that what you wrote isn't offensive.

 

[Plissken]

Barbaric? You sure that's the right word? Viable, but defective offspring don't do the species any favors. If snakes were spayed or neutered, then I guess it would be different, buy they're not.

"... with flowery meadows, and rainbow skies, and rivers made of chocolate, where the children danced and laughed and played with gumdrop smiles."

Just curious, how many times have you had to make these kinds of decisions? I don't like your implication that those who euthanize defective hatchlings are money-grubbing barbarians. You may have written "no offense", but that doesn't mean that what you wrote isn't offensive.

Perhaps it would have been better if I'd said the act of killing these hatchlings is barbaric. As for not doing the species any favours - I don't buy that at all. I love my animals for what they are, and I am certainly not in any position to think I am important enough to take away the lives of happy creatures. Maybe you feel comfortable killing healthy animals, but I am not.

"... with flowery meadows, and rainbow skies, and rivers made of chocolate, where the children danced and laughed and played with gumdrop smiles."

You can think what you like about my opinions, but I consider this rude. Maybe YOU think my views are unrealistic, but I respect life. An animal can be born deformed but so long as it is happy and healthy - how after all would an animal know it's deformed if it functions otherwise normally - why kill it? That's designer animals. Do you really think you have a right to kill an animal which could live a happy life, just because it doesn't suit YOUR needs? When you bring an animal in to this world, doesn't it become your repsonsibility? Snakes are not disposables you can just bung in the freezer whenever it suits you.

No, I don't breed snakes, but that doesn't mean my opinions are less valid than yours. If / when I do breed snakes, I can assure you that this opinion I express freely will be put it in to practice.

I don't know why it is I can't seem to express myself around here without someone jumping on me. I don't consider what I said rude, and I already admitted that I should have rephrased my barbarian comment. You've never said something that came out different to how you meant it?

 

[zwyatt]

:-offtopic I don't mean to drag things off-topic, but...well sorry.

...to take away the lives of happy creatures.

How exactly do you define an animal's state of being? Especially considering this case in which the animal is a snake. Just because an animal is alive doesn't imply that it is necessarily happy or healthy.