Tiny-eyed corns, what to do?

[Serpwidgets]

Do you really think you have a right to kill an animal which could live a happy life, just because it doesn't suit YOUR needs?

How does this not apply to the healthy mice that are killed to suit your needs of feeding your snakes? :shrugs:

 

[Roy Munson]

Perhaps it would have been better if I'd said the act of killing these hatchlings is barbaric. As for not doing the species any favours - I don't buy that at all. I love my animals for what they are, and I am certainly not in any position to think I am important enough to take away the lives of happy creatures. Maybe you feel comfortable killing healthy animals, but I am not.

The whole "happy creatures" idea is too silly for me to discuss. And I don't care what ideas you buy or don't. If defects are potentially genetic, and you don't take away these animals' reproductive ability, they are a risk to the species.

Snakes are not disposables you can just bung in the freezer whenever it suits you.

This is what I don't like about your posting style sometimes. You write in absolutes, as if you have all the answers. I doubt that you do.

No, I don't breed snakes, but that doesn't mean my opinions are less valid than yours. If / when I do breed snakes, I can assure you that this opinion I express freely will be put it in to practice.

Well, we'll see. Maybe you are wealthy, and have unlimited space. I don't have money or space to raise every defective animal that I might produce, and I don't feel comfortable selling or giving them away either. Can't wait to see you sacrifice your projects and collection space to care for defective animals. Are you a vegan? Do you wear animal products? Just wondering.

I don't know why it is I can't seem to express myself around here without someone jumping on me. I don't consider what I said rude, and I already admitted that I should have rephrased my barbarian comment. You've never said something that came out different to how you meant it?

See my comment above about your posting style.

 

[Roy Munson]

How does this not apply to the healthy mice that are killed to suit your needs of feeding your snakes? :shrugs:

Fortunately, I WAS able to rep Serpwidgets again! :cheers:

 

[SnakeCreations]

Perhaps it would have been better if I'd said the act of killing these hatchlings is barbaric. As for not doing the species any favours - I don't buy that at all. I love my animals for what they are, and I am certainly not in any position to think I am important enough to take away the lives of happy creatures. Maybe you feel comfortable killing healthy animals, but I am not.

No, I don't breed snakes, but that doesn't mean my opinions are less valid than yours. If / when I do breed snakes, I can assure you that this opinion I express freely will be put it in to practice.

Hi Becks/All -

First, this is your opinion. I respect it. It's idealistic and perhaps not realistic - but it is your opinion and when you are a breeder you can make the judgment about what your goals are. This is the point I'd like you to see - What are you trying to accomplish? Good eaters, healthy, beautiful, new morphs..whatever. You really need to answer this questions first and foremost because then you are in a position to make a judgement about what to do with hatchlings. That is the point that Dean (I think) was making. When you use words that are inflammatory (like barbaric) you imply that breeders who cull have no feeling.

Secondly, it would would be wonderful and amazing if everyone respected life and recognized that there are some snakes that should NOT be allowed to breed. But the truth is that there are more that do not. Male Cheap Snake + Female Cheap Snake = 10 - 20 times a return on their investment. And hey, all they had to do was throw mice in once a week. If it were reasonable that snakes could be "fixed" then your scenario that every animal deserves life is reasonable. However, that is not the case. So then it would make sense that you look at what is best for the species overall. What if small eyed snakes also come with small kidneys? When they grow the kidneys fail? What do you do then? What if you've already sold them as "pets"?

Becks, I didn't see Deans comment as rude, I saw it as someone who was trying to make you think about your position. Just my .02, of course

-Tonya

 

[SnakeCreations]

How does this not apply to the healthy mice that are killed to suit your needs of feeding your snakes? :shrugs:

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Serpwidgets again.

<huge grin> as usual, Serp was able to make the obvious point versus my 2 paragraphs .. LOL

-Tonya

 

[ghosthousecorns]

If Plissken was referring to the 'smalleyed' snakes being discussed in this thread which to me are not necessarily defective, I can see her point. If a snake is kinked or deformed in an obvious way, I don't have anything against euthanizing it, but I don't like the practice of euthanizing otherwise healthy snakes because they are just normals, or lacking the pattern you wanted, or because you just don't have room for that one and you got a morph you'd rather keep in the same clutch. Maybe 'happy snake' is the wrong term, but some things will affect the quality of life for an animal and other things will not. If these small eyed snakes can see fine, eat OK, and have no health issues or other noticeable problems why euthanize them? Because their eyes are a bit too small just doesn't seem like a great reason to cull to me. The small eyes could be related to other 'defects' or maybe not, but you can't assume these things, you would have to keep and observe the snake to know for sure.
I can see the cheap snake point, but not every pet hobbyist is a breeder, why should someone who just wants a pet snake not be able to buy a healthy, but less than perfect or more common specimen inexpensively? If it wasn't for cheap snakes maybe fewer people would be getting into the hobby and going on to buy more expensive ones down the line, that's how I got started.

 

[Menhir]

I don't want to get too deep into the discussion because I think that the last part doesn't bring many input to Kats problem.

To be honest, I would never sell an animal as healthy that I am not completely sure of. I don't see any problem to sell these animals as pets, maybe to a novice that doesn't want to breed them and especially not in pairs. You can't be sure, that they aren't used for breeding porpuses in the future, but I think selling them as "animals to look at" is the correct way for both, you and the buyer.

Greetings
Michael

 

[JM :o)]

I think the babies look fine~ the eyes are a little small~ but I don't see that as being a big deal. Looks like normal variation to me.

That said~ if you choose to cull those hatchlings~ I don't see a problem with that. Mother Nature intends for some percent of baby snakes to be feed for something else~ otherwise there would not be so many of them in each clutch. It's nice for us that we can keep the percentage higher on the survival side~ but I'm not sure that makes it mandatory that we do.

I know~ some of you think I'm cold hearted for saying that~ but the truth is the truth. I think baby mice are cute~ but I feed those to my baby snakes anyway. I think baby cows are REALLY cute~ but I'm going to have a steak for dinner~ and so will my kids.

 

[Hypancistrus]

At first I agreed with Plisken- why kill a perfectly functional hatchling for a "cosmetic" defect? It could still be a good pet! I equated it to getting a puppy in a litter of black labs that has a white star on its chest- it's not "breeder material," but will be a good pet.

Then someone pointed out that snakes aren't dogs and we can't spay/neuter them, so... even if you sell them as "pet only" that means NOTHING to the unscrupulous cheap skate that purchases them and breeds them anyway.

So I vote for keeping them a while and seeing if they "grow out of it," or if it's really as noticeable once they are a bit bigger- but then you have to wait and use food to keep them alive... so in essence, I have no clue what you should do!! :shrugs:

 

[Pat GC]

Nature rarely wastes anything!!! Kat send them to me. I have 7 Kings that would love a snack of Corn. That's the best way to utilize the energy the Corns represent in the whole scheme of things. And then down the road we won't have what we have now with "Bug Eyed" Leucistic Texas Rats.

Pat GC

 

[ScottyK]

I live in a world where life is valued far higher than how much I can get for each clutch.

You asked why you keep getting "jumped on" when you post. Here is my hopefully constructive answer. It's tagging statements like this to the end of your posts...

You are entitled to your opinion, and putting all on topic arguments aside for a second.... Was this really necessary, and do you mean to imply that Kat's reason for posting this is she's worried about losing a few dollars?

As someone who's been reading her posts for a few years, I'm going to go out on a limb here. I'm guessing she's mainly worried about passing a possible genetic defect along to unsuspecting buyers. This makes your above quote the first rude statement in this thread, and completely uncalled for.

On topic.....

I think you should see how they grow out for a bit, and if you do pass them along, it should be a "pets only" designation for them.

 

[Quick Strike]

Honestly I think its just variation between corns.

 

[Plissken]

If Plissken was referring to the 'smalleyed' snakes being discussed in this thread which to me are not necessarily defective, I can see her point. If a snake is kinked or deformed in an obvious way, I don't have anything against euthanizing it, but I don't like the practice of euthanizing otherwise healthy snakes because they are just normals, or lacking the pattern you wanted, or because you just don't have room for that one and you got a morph you'd rather keep in the same clutch. Maybe 'happy snake' is the wrong term, but some things will affect the quality of life for an animal and other things will not. If these small eyed snakes can see fine, eat OK, and have no health issues or other noticeable problems why euthanize them? Because their eyes are a bit too small just doesn't seem like a great reason to cull to me. The small eyes could be related to other 'defects' or maybe not, but you can't assume these things, you would have to keep and observe the snake to know for sure.
I can see the cheap snake point, but not every pet hobbyist is a breeder, why should someone who just wants a pet snake not be able to buy a healthy, but less than perfect or more common specimen inexpensively? If it wasn't for cheap snakes maybe fewer people would be getting into the hobby and going on to buy more expensive ones down the line, that's how I got started.

Yes, I was referrring to the small-eyed snakes... thank you, I'm glad you see it this way.

You asked why you keep getting "jumped on" when you post. Here is my hopefully constructive answer. It's tagging statements like this to the end of your posts...

You are entitled to your opinion, and putting all on topic arguments aside for a second.... Was this really necessary, and do you mean to imply that Kat's reason for posting this is she's worried about losing a few dollars?

As someone who's been reading her posts for a few years, I'm going to go out on a limb here. I'm guessing she's mainly worried about passing a possible genetic defect along to unsuspecting buyers. This makes your above quote the first rude statement in this thread, and completely uncalled for.

On topic.....

I think you should see how they grow out for a bit, and if you do pass them along, it should be a "pets only" designation for them.

I wasn't talking specfically about Kat. I didn't see anything in this thread that suggested that Kat was going to kill the snakes - it was merely an option on the poll. Doesn't mean it was one of HER options.

To clear matters up - I apologise if anyone feels I express myself too strongly, or offensively. It's never my intention. I just have NO WAY with words, whatsoever, and I only wanted to contribute to an interesting discussion. Wasn't supposed to go like this. :shrug:

 

[CaseyUndead]

Well.. I don't exactly know anything about breeding snakes.. But not everyone who buys snakes does so to breed them. Sell it a little cheaper as a pet. I think he's cute. I'm sure there are a lot of people out there who are just looking for a nice pet, who would really love to get a good deal on such a pretty little snake regardless of whether or not its breeding quality. I wouldn't have even noticed the small eyes if i saw the picture without anyone saying anything about it.

 

[Eriathiel]

I think you might want to sell them at a discount, seeing as you might not know how it might affect them in adult hood... but thats just me.

 

[Meeghann]

look at the date on this thread ... it is an old thread!

 

[texastailfeathers]

This one might not be such a bad one to bump. For some reason there is a lot of interest in opinion on culling lately.

I already repped 3 or 4 people in this thread before I saw the dates.

 

[Eriathiel]

I almost never look at dates... it just doesn't occur to me!!!