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to post or not to post.

tcr03

install guru
i took a video of my new lavender constricting and eating a mouse. and im wondering if i should post it on here for everyone to see. i dont know how some of you feel about our snakes constricting live prey. its only a fuzzy, but in the constricting video you can see the mouse gasping for air.

just let me know and i will post them.
 
tcr03 said:
i took a video of my new lavender constricting and eating a mouse. and im wondering if i should post it on here for everyone to see. i dont know how some of you feel about our snakes constricting live prey. its only a fuzzy, but in the constricting video you can see the mouse gasping for air.

just let me know and i will post them.
Well, you cracked the nutshell with this post. The most common arguments presented for feeding live prey are that "feeding live is more natural for the animal - after all, no one kills their food in the wild" and "I like to give my animal a chance to hunt and kill because it really likes it."

The fact, however, is that captivity is not a natural state. Our reptiles and amphibians are not spending their days searching for food, hiding from predators, searching out favored microhabitats while avoiding aggressive members of their own species, hiding, vulnerable to predation and attack, during their shed periods. Instead they are housed (or should be!) in a comfy enclosure with all of their habitat needs met. If we wanted our animals to enjoy a natural state, we would never have acquired them.

As for needing the "thrill of the kill," that is anthropomorphism at its worst. What our reptiles and amphibians need is a large enough environment outfitted properly to give it enough mental and physical stimulation. For reptiles who are handleable, handling and that opportunity to be out of their enclosure provides the exercise and stimulation that they need, not chasing a rat or mouse around a small rectangular box.

Feeding killed is also safer for the reptile or amphibian. An animal who is not hungry will not eat. It will ignore whatever is going on around it. A prey animal left alone in a tank with a predator, however, is not so relaxed about the whole thing. Mice and chicks are usually terrified, spending their time cowering in a corner or trying to find a place to hide. Rats, however, come from bolder, and hungrier, stock. If left alone long enough with a disinterested predator, they will begin to eat whatever is around: your snake or lizard. Crickets and mealworms are similarly fearless and hungry. Rats have eaten their way into snakes, devouring the skin and flesh off their backs, exposing long stretches of backbone, even quite literally eviscerating them. Even crickets and mealworms will gnaw away at the skin and seek moisture from the eyes of healthy herps when left unattended in an enclosure without proper food and moisture for them. One of the most tragic things a vet or experienced herper sees is an otherwise healthy reptile or amphibian that has to be put down or is already dead from such prey feeding practices.

Live prey may also fight back during a feeding session causing severe injuries. Claws and teeth can bite through the mouth area, puncture eyes, cut through tongue sheaths, and puncture or slice through a coil of the predator's body.

There are those who will argue that it does not happen in the wild. There are also those who will argue that it does happen in the wild and that, being a natural occurrence, should not be avoided in captivity. It does happen in the wild. We don't see much evidence of it as the injured or crippled predator manages to hide away before dying or is itself preyed upon by another predator before dying or is scavenged after dying. I responded to a call where I found a wild gopher snake whose jaw had been fractured and half its tongue bitten off by prey who had successfully fought off a feeding attempt, its grossly swollen and bloodied tongue sheath dangling from the broken, crooked jaw.

Whether it happens or not, however, is immaterial. We are responsible for the health and well-being of our animals in captivity. That means keeping them properly housed, heated, humidified and fed. And that means keeping them safe from avoidable harm. :rolleyes:
 
well im going to post them anyway. you can make your own choice if you want to watch them.

first up, sqeezing the mouse.


eating the mouse
 
wow Fender...............that may be one of the most informative posts i have ever seen. right or wrong, good or bad, i won't get into as people have their own opinions and reasons. but i have to give you some big-time credit for coming up with that post/answer. :cheers:

galen
 
I would have to agree with Fenderplayer here. I've nothing against feeding live if it's the only option. If you can feed f/t or killed, I don't see any reason for not doing so "just because."
 
i only feed live to my hatchlings cause they are simply easier at that size than dealing with a miniscule frozen thing. as soon as they move up a mouse size (as in the mouse has fur and teeth and claws) they are switched to f/t. when the mouse can fight back, it's time to take that option away.
 
i feed F/T not only because i don't want to take any risks with my snakes well-being, but because I have a weird quirk:

I have NO problem dealing with raw meat, dead animals, whatever.
Being brought up in a semi-asian household with a mother that likes to cook, I have cleaned, chopped, gutted and skinned, which is why I have no problem feeding mice whereas a bunch of my friends do. I figure it's no different then having chicken in your freezer.

However,
I can NOT watch things actually dying.


I used to go fishing with my cousins, and I'd fish fine, and even gut the fish afterwards fine... but the actual act of whacking the fish dead?

couldn't watch, couldn't even LISTEN.

If I had to kill stuff myself, i'd be a vegetarian.

:)
 
I don't think I'd ever try and feed a live rat to snake. Mice on the other hand, I've had adult mice chew on my corns while being constricted and it doesn't even leave a mark. But after watching that I only feed small adult mice live, and only for educational reasons. I'd hate to risk a big mouses bite even though it probably wouldn't do anything. I have no idea why some people seem to think that pinkies or fuzzies can pose a risk, they don't even have teeth.
I agree that leaving a snake unattended with a live adult mouse or any toothed rat is very foolish.
 
antsterr said:
I don't think I'd ever try and feed a live rat to snake. Mice on the other hand, I've had adult mice chew on my corns while being constricted and it doesn't even leave a mark. But after watching that I only feed small adult mice live, and only for educational reasons. I'd hate to risk a big mouses bite even though it probably wouldn't do anything. I have no idea why some people seem to think that pinkies or fuzzies can pose a risk, they don't even have teeth.
I agree that leaving a snake unattended with a live adult mouse or any toothed rat is very foolish.

Thanks for typing what I wanted to type :cheers:
 
antsterr said:
I don't think I'd ever try and feed a live rat to snake. Mice on the other hand, I've had adult mice chew on my corns while being constricted and it doesn't even leave a mark. But after watching that I only feed small adult mice live, and only for educational reasons. I'd hate to risk a big mouses bite even though it probably wouldn't do anything. I have no idea why some people seem to think that pinkies or fuzzies can pose a risk, they don't even have teeth.
I agree that leaving a snake unattended with a live adult mouse or any toothed rat is very foolish.

I agree completely with you, i don't mind the thawed fuzzies but i could not watch my snake kill a live mouse. I'm glad you typed that and i think a lot of other people will be too. On the other hand if thats what someone likes to feed their snake then thats up to them.
 
to any of you that have watched the videos, my snake just regurged im guessing last night or this morning. do you think the mouse was too big for my snake from looking at the video. or could it of been somthing else.
 
Fenderplayer108 said:
Well, you cracked the nutshell with this post. The most common arguments presented for feeding live prey are that "feeding live is more natural for the animal - after all, no one kills their food in the wild" and "I like to give my animal a chance to hunt and kill because it really likes it."

The fact, however, is that captivity is not a natural state. Our reptiles and amphibians are not spending their days searching for food, hiding from predators, searching out favored microhabitats while avoiding aggressive members of their own species, hiding, vulnerable to predation and attack, during their shed periods. Instead they are housed (or should be!) in a comfy enclosure with all of their habitat needs met. If we wanted our animals to enjoy a natural state, we would never have acquired them.

As for needing the "thrill of the kill," that is anthropomorphism at its worst. What our reptiles and amphibians need is a large enough environment outfitted properly to give it enough mental and physical stimulation. For reptiles who are handleable, handling and that opportunity to be out of their enclosure provides the exercise and stimulation that they need, not chasing a rat or mouse around a small rectangular box.

Feeding killed is also safer for the reptile or amphibian. An animal who is not hungry will not eat. It will ignore whatever is going on around it. A prey animal left alone in a tank with a predator, however, is not so relaxed about the whole thing. Mice and chicks are usually terrified, spending their time cowering in a corner or trying to find a place to hide. Rats, however, come from bolder, and hungrier, stock. If left alone long enough with a disinterested predator, they will begin to eat whatever is around: your snake or lizard. Crickets and mealworms are similarly fearless and hungry. Rats have eaten their way into snakes, devouring the skin and flesh off their backs, exposing long stretches of backbone, even quite literally eviscerating them. Even crickets and mealworms will gnaw away at the skin and seek moisture from the eyes of healthy herps when left unattended in an enclosure without proper food and moisture for them. One of the most tragic things a vet or experienced herper sees is an otherwise healthy reptile or amphibian that has to be put down or is already dead from such prey feeding practices.

Live prey may also fight back during a feeding session causing severe injuries. Claws and teeth can bite through the mouth area, puncture eyes, cut through tongue sheaths, and puncture or slice through a coil of the predator's body.

There are those who will argue that it does not happen in the wild. There are also those who will argue that it does happen in the wild and that, being a natural occurrence, should not be avoided in captivity. It does happen in the wild. We don't see much evidence of it as the injured or crippled predator manages to hide away before dying or is itself preyed upon by another predator before dying or is scavenged after dying. I responded to a call where I found a wild gopher snake whose jaw had been fractured and half its tongue bitten off by prey who had successfully fought off a feeding attempt, its grossly swollen and bloodied tongue sheath dangling from the broken, crooked jaw.

Whether it happens or not, however, is immaterial. We are responsible for the health and well-being of our animals in captivity. That means keeping them properly housed, heated, humidified and fed. And that means keeping them safe from avoidable harm. :rolleyes:

That is by far one of the best posts I've ever read. Very well said, Fender.
 
indeed, in their 'natural' state, snakes would be sneaking up on, and hunting mice. Not have the mouse dumped in the viv, where they are both aware of eachother. In nature, the mouse would have the option of running away. Natural selection would also play a part, with older or defective mice making it to the dinner plate, who can't run as fast or put up as much of a fight.

I don't like watching things die either, and I would think being crushed by a snake is a lot worse than co2 treatment.

And I also have to wonder, in a post titled 'to post or not to post', then getting advice not to post, you post anyway? What was the point of asking then?
 
plasticknives said:
However,
I can NOT watch things actually dying.

Seconded!

Actually, funny story: I went to the store for fuzzies the other day, but I forgot to say "frozen." It was quite a surprise when I got home, to say the least. I gave two fuzzies to a friend from work (Danaish72 on here). I currently have the other two fighting over a triscuit in Zeke's feeding thing because I refuse to kill them.
 
As an added note, my petstore uses the definition of "fuzzies" very loosely. Anybody around U of I want two mice?
 
^^^ most fuzzies I've seen are still not independent from their mother. If they are eating solid food that would make them a hopper by local terms.
 
antsterr said:
^^^ most fuzzies I've seen are still not independent from their mother. If they are eating solid food that would make them a hopper by local terms.

They are beyond the hopper stage. I would actually call them sub-adults. That was my comment about the petstore using the definition of "fuzzies" loosely.
 
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