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Two regurges.... wish me luck for Sixx

I'm the OP, and just to be clear, I didn't edit out any of my temps that I posted. I did report back a couple times with temps, though, given direction from people to measure glass, measure top of substrate, etc.

But I still struggle to be sure I'm doing what is right. And I am concerned if I bump up my UTH to a point where the warm-side top of substrate reads in the mid-80s, then I'll be frying my snake who prefers to be down under his hide on the glass above the UTH (which is only on the right side of the viv, to be clear).

This is just insanely frustrating to be new to owning a snake, and second guessing every step of what I'm doing. Seriously.
 
As Nanci mentioned above, keep the top of the glass 86ish on the warm side. I suspect your stat set at 84 is fine. Maybe you could bump it up a degree to keep the bottom end of the range a little warmer than 82ish.

If you measure the temp at the top of the substrate and try keep that at 86, there is a strong possibility you will burn/harm your snake if it burrows.
 
foghat said:
As Nanci mentioned above, keep the top of the glass 86ish on the warm side. I suspect your stat set at 84 is fine. Maybe you could bump it up a degree to keep the bottom end of the range a little warmer than 82ish.

If you measure the temp at the top of the substrate and try keep that at 86, there is a strong possibility you will burn/harm your snake if it burrows.
Click to expand...

At 86 there is no risk of burning the snake.
 
Chip said:
At 86 there is no risk of burning the snake, ZERO.
Click to expand...

I am not sure what the temp at the glass would have to be to get the top of the substrate to 86, but I would guess it would have be at least 96 and probably higher - depending on how thick the substrate is.

At 86 on top of the substrate - which is what this we are talking about here, I'd think there is at least a strong possibility of harming/stressing (if not burning) the snake if it burrows.
 
1st, I didn't say 86 for the surface. That was a setting for the glass. But if I did, as long as the snake has a gradient, it is still safe. I am hesitant to offer this, but you can really keep temps warm if you offer a gradient. Have you ever seen a snake sunning on a hot road or rock? As long as you have an open top, cool air temps, and a gradient, you can keep a section of the cage warm. DO NOT do this. I am simply offering this to illustrate that 86 will not burn your snake. This tessera is on the hottest part of the cage digesting:
2gvn41k.jpg

This is an open top Freedom Breeder, and not a glass cage.
 
Thanks for the info. My whole initial post was in response to your statement: " Check the temp on top of the bedding, and that is what your snake really has for a warm side."

Which to me implied (and as I noted above, perhaps I misunderstood) you were suggesting measuring the temp at the top of the substrate. Which goes against everything I had read prior on heating. Was just trying to get clarification what you meant. Now I have it.
 
Geminiluna said:
I'm the OP, and just to be clear, I didn't edit out any of my temps that I posted.
Click to expand...

You're right, for some reason, I couldn't find the 73.5 you'd posted earlier. I'm at work and really too busy to be trying to multitask! I keep all my babies at 86 surface temp for back heated racks. Glass cages are much trickier. Your cage almost surely could use a bump in temps. See what the surface reads when you set the glass to 86. Do you see him burrow? Does he spend most of his time on the heat? Where the snake is staying can tell you a lot. You know what to do when you get him started feeding, 10 day fast, pinkie head, small meals, etc. I just want to know that your viv has the temps dialed in before you feed again. A 3rd regurge is often fatal.
 
Thanks Foghat and Chip.

I've got temp readings warmer than yesterday. First, it's a much milder weather day today than it was yesterday, and my ambient household temps are a noticeably warmer 74 today as opposed to 68-70 yesterday.

Surface Substrate temp is about 75 on the "cool" side of the 10-gallon foot-print viv, and 78 over the UTH, with no over-head heating supplement. Glass temp where the UTH is affixed reached 90, because I bumped up the t-stat to try to get better substrate temps. Jeez, I don't know now if I should move it back down or not. To Chip's point about the snake's behavior, Sixx - for the first time that I've observed - has left his spot on the glass above the UTH and is now on on the glass under the substrate in the cool area where it's measuring 74 - 75. So he does have a gradient and moves accordingly.

I get it that a glass viv with screen top is going to be a disaster over the winter as far as keeping stable temps and properly warmed/humidified ambient air temps. My husband and I are going to go to the herp show in Indianapolis on SUnday and I'll look for some options for habitat/enclosures that will provide better temp stability and my husband and I are exploring options of better placement of Sixx's viv in the house to avoid temp swings from winter weather.
 
You'll be fine with a glass viv with a screen top. If it gets cooler than 65ish, cool side, top of substrate, and cooler than 85 on the glass over the UTH, you can always just put a piece of cardboard on top to keep the warm air in.
 
Hi, I'm a new member here, been reading a while, but I am definitely no expert. I just had to join and post after reading this thread.
First off sorry to hear about your problems, but glad to see how pro-active you are about solving the issue.

The first thing I noticed was the ceramic heating bulb being placed on the cold side, the way I feel is a heat bulb of any sort should never be placed on the cool side of the tank. If your tank needs more heat in it then the hot side is what needs to be turned up.
The other thing I noticed is that you have a 10 gallon tank, when I first got my hatchling I put him in a 10 gallon tank as well. I had a smaller 10-20 gallon under tank heat pad for it which alone with no regulation got my surface temp to mid 80's which was perfect. I was new and made the mistake of using a heat lamp as well and when I scanned my temps it was just way to hot to use anything but the heat pad alone in a small 10 gallon tank!
Since changing over to a 40 gallon breeder tank (and yes my snake is still small 14" little guy) I have found I highly disagree with everything people say about having to keep a hatchling in a small tank. Now of course many hides need to be available, but it is way easier to regulate proper temps in a larger tank I have found and the larger tank allows more area of temp gradients and more hides for your snake to be able to self regulate better.

I am by no means telling you that you need a bigger tank, just putting it out there to others that they shouldn't be afraid of using one for their hatchlings.
What I did find now on my larger tank(and my snake seems to be thriving since the switch, had one regurge when he was in the 10 gallon) is that with the same heater pad on this larger tank I see about 80 degrees under the hide on the hot side in the morning and I use the heat lamp down during the day time. This combined on the hot side (uth pad and heat lamp) give me about 86 degree aspin surface temp that gradually goes to 75 degrees on the middle of the tank and also room temp (68-70 degrees on the very far cool end, Chicago winter).
With such a large tank I have little to fear of too warm or too cold on either end because there is plenty of just right everywhere else.

I believe my regurge issue was from too hot in the little tank with no escape.
Were you using your ceramic heater element during both regurges?
Like I said I'm no expert but this is what I've seen with my limited experiences.
 
I agree that hatchlings do fine in larger tanks- 20 gallons or even bigger. BUT I regularly grow out yearlings in 10 gallons, and don't have regurge problems with them. I monitor both sides of the 10s with dual-probed thermometers, and get a nice gradient from room temp to whatever I have the hot side at, around 84-85 usually. I don't use any type of overhead heat or light with snakes.
 
Thanks, TurboChris, for joining to be able to comment. Since you're in Chicago, then you know what kind of temps we face around here. I'm close enough to Chicago that I still drive up to the Loop occasionally for work meetings.

Anyway, No, I don't still run the overhead heat. I did at the start when I first got Sixx. I referenced that as a change I had made in that when I first got him, I was running overhead heat and he ate and digested just fine. But then after reading more about temp gradients, I turned it off. Coupled with putting my UTH on a thermostat and turning off the overhead heat is when Sixx first did his regurg.

Anyway - he's still on regurg protocol and has another few days before I can offer a pinky head. As you know it's been very mild weather lately in our area, so I'm having no problem keeping steady temps in both the cold and the warm sides of his enclosure. Nutri-bac arrived yesterday, and I'll use it when I do feed the first pinky head. I'd sure feel a lot better about using the product,though, if the label didn't have spelling errors on it! :-/
 
I'll add, too, and thanks to TurboChris for describing the switch he made from a 10 to a 40, that I have been wondering about switching from a 10 to a 20-long. From all my fish-keeping days, I've got empty tanks laying around in sizes from 2.5 gallon to 75 gallon (no 40's though!).

TurboChris, can you describe for me kind of where you have your heat lamp relative to where you've got your UTH positioned and your cold side, and if you keep it on just during day or night? You said you use the heat lamp down during the day time, and that lost me a little.
 
Sorry, that was a typo and I meant to say I use the heat lamp during the day.
I'm not recommending the heat lamp, but with my smaller heat pad it works nicely to get my tank up to proper temps and since I already owned it all I tried it out and seemed to get the proper temps for these creatures so I'm using it now. A larger uth would really be a better option I'm sure, but since I have this stuff and it works then why not.

The breeder tank is pretty wide so looking down from above, I have the heating pad near the top left corner which is the back of the tank. It isn't right in the corner but is near it off to the side up and over there a few inches away from the corner really. Then since the breeder tank is wide I put the heat lamp near the bottom left corner when viewed from above.(both lamp and uth are on the same side, but lamp near the front and the pad near the back). Both about 4" from the left end of the tank.

With a 20 gallon long tank (if running both a heat pad and lamp) I would start like this personally....imagine the tank split into 5 even sections across the length. Say spot 1 is far left and spot 5 being far right.
I would have spot one as the hot side and spot 5 the cold end.
Spot 1 I would put the heat lamp. Spot 2 I would put the uth and the hot side hide. I would have hides in each area(you can leave spot 1 open for basking without a hide but I doubt the snake will want to bask ever but the heat lamp will help keep the air temp warmer in the tank(like I said I have too small of an uth for my tank size as of right now and a larger pad would make the lamp unnecessary).
That's just where I would start with no real science behind my ideas to take it for what it's worth as an opinion.
I would also recommend playing around with the location and height of the heat bulb and heating pad as well. If you cold side is too cold you can move your heating pad over towards the center of the tank an inch at a time until you have the temps how you want them throughout the tank.
Remember if using an overhead heating bulb or element, the amount of heat it puts out below it is affected by how many inches from the bulb away the tank is.

I have also been using aspin per the recommendation of members of this website and I really do find it to be the perfect substrate as they have said many times over on here. It literally turns the entire tank into a giant hide for the snake which is great because then if the hot side is correct temp, and the cool side is around the correct temp as well, then the snake can go anywhere and hide in the entire tank at any temperature in between the hot and cold side that the snake chooses. It's really awesome!
I'm glad I've inspired you to try out your larger tank, you may want to establish a few meals before switching over first but my snake didn't seem stressed at all from it, he actually seemed happy and excited about it more than anything from what I had noticed.
I truly found it easier with the larger tank and I hope you find the same results yourself. Before with the smaller tank all I had to offer for hides was warm and cool. Now I seem to have warmest, warm, medium, cool, and coolest.
Just seemed to work out really well in my opinion.
Good luck and let us know how he does overall and when you decide to make the switch on the tanks. Best of luck.
 
Since your snake already regurged twice, I would suggest mixing 1 cc water with as much NB as you can mix in and keep it liquid, and feed it via tube or eyedropper a day or two BEFORE you offer another meal. Then it can coat the GI tract and start to colonize before the snake has to digest again.

Hope the little guy can hold down the next meal!
 
No real updates yet. I don't have my feed notes here at my desk, but I think today would have been the timing for my next attempt to feed Sixx in this regurge protocol. BUT, I'm not going to attempt until middle of coming week for a couple reasons.

First, I do have the NutriBac and after seeing KathyLove's post, I want to take extra time to ensure pre-feed delivery to kick-start his gut fauna. Starting yesterday, I'm dissolving NutriBac in Sixx's drinking water (will change it every 24 hrs) and will get a squirt of liquid concentrate down him with an eyedropper a day or two prior to attempting a pinky head.

Second, I'm gearing up to change Sixx over to a tub enclosure on Sat or Sun and will give him a few days post move to settle before offering the pinky head. That would make it another week before I attempt a feed after his last regurge.

Thanks, TurboChris for your in depth description of your set-up. I read it right after you posted and have pondered. I'm going to set up a Sterilite 16 qt tonight and furnish it the way I would as if a snake were in it (water bowl, aspen, hides, UTH on a thermostat), and set up a temp probe on cool end and warm end, as well as put a hygrometer in there, and monitor for a few days to see if I'm satisfied with the readings. If I am satisfied with the readings, then I'll switch him over to that Saturday or Sunday, and give him a few days to settle before attempting a pinky head mid next week.

In the interim, he's still in his screen-top 10-gallon and I keep monitoring temps but still haven't gotten satisfactory readings in his warm side. Either the screen-top is letting out too much heat, or I've got a whacky thermostat, or my little digital temp gun thing is faulty (and I really suspect it's all three). In switching over to a tub, I'll substantially minimize the heat loss and am also upgrading to a HerpStat2 thermostat that I think will help. In the interim, both for his comfort and my peace of mind, my husband and I dedicated a spare room for him and have a digital thermostat controlled space heater in there keeping the room at a very comfy 75-77 degrees. (It's sooo nice and warm up there in that room, but I'm going to croak when I see the electric bill this winter!)

So, I'll give an update at the end of next week and hopefully it will be a very cheerful update that says he kept down a pinky head through successful poop.
 
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Wish I had good news...

Well, guys and gals - Wish I had good news but Sixx regurged again, despite following all the best recommendations gathered from all of you. (Nutribac in water, nutribac delivered via eye-dropper day prior to meal, small section of a pink with nutribac on it, temps, etc). I don't believe my temps are at fault, especially since moving him to a tub last week with an upgrade to Herpstat 2 thermostat, probes that make the tub look like a critical care unit, and redundant temp gun for monitoring, etc.

He did pass a little bit of feces after this regurge, which means at least some of his meal digested. I didn't even think to save the regurge from yesterday, but I did have the presence of mind to bag the tiny bit of feces and took that along with Sixx to the Avian & Exotic Animal Clinic here in Lafayette this morning. The vet said his fecal was clear of parasites, but did say that it was such a small sample to work with and that it's possible to get false negatives. The vet said he appears in good weight (he's 10 grams, up from 8 when I got him despite regurging his last few meals). The vet also listened to me describe Sixx's tub set-up and temps/humidity, and also does not think temperatures are an issue.

However, the vet does think that after regurging like this, even a pinky head at this point may be too large for Sixx and recommends I go with something even more miniscule like a pinky tail or leg.

The vet did think he possibly could see a tick under one of Sixx's belly scales, but with Sixx being so tiny it really was difficult for the vet to determine without running the risk of doing damage to the scale. He treated Sixx for that in the office, and said to come back in two weeks for another treatment (and a third treatment two weeks after that). Meanwhile throw out all the aspen and thoroughly scrub and sanitize his tub (and repeat the thorough cleaning after each 2 week treatment). The vet did not think a tick, if that was what it was as opposed to his natural coloration, had anything to do with the regurge issue.

So... please continue to wish us luck. At this point, I'm going to toss the mutilated pinky I have in the freezer and get a new one from different supplier when it's time to attempt this again. I have to wonder is something that I cannot detect has fouled the pinkies I had, which were from a different purchase than what Sixx fed on successfully when I first got him.

Prayers needed for the little guy...
 
Sorry to hear the bad news.

At this point, I would go to a liquid diet with NB via eyedropper or tube for the next several meals. It will be much easier to digest.

I have used a variety of foods, including meat baby food or cat food (which may have to be pushed through a tea strainer so it won't clog up the tube. Try to use a "pate" form). But I have found that ferret food seems to work the best. You buy a package of the pelleted food and put it through your blender with water. If it clogs the tube, you may have to put it through a tea strainer. Then put it into an ice cube tray so you can keep the extra in the freezer. I have successfully raised 3 Amazon tree boas for 8 months on nothing but ferret food via tube. Then they went on to eating mice with no problem. So it does work.

I would suggest continuing to dose with NB during the next week or so, and after that, adding a little liquid food. If it is a hatchling, I would keep it to about 1cc of liquid every 4 days or so, until it starts to gain a little weight. Try to weigh on a gram scale just before feeding, if you have access to one. After a little weight gain, you can go to a bigger dose of NB plus food. Be sure to hold the snake upright for a minute or two after feeding so the food doesn't run out again. And be sure to avoid stress (such as unnecessary handling) until the snake is totally normal again.

We do sell a feeding kit (on my site) made up by Connie Hurley, DVM. But if you already have a feeding tube or eye dropper that is working, then you can just buy the ferret food locally. I like Pretty Pet Natural Gold, but any of them should work.

If the stomach area feels strong and muscular yet, he may still pull through. Once that area fees mushy to the touch, the prognosis is very poor, unfortunately.

Good luck!
 
Thank you so much, Kathy, for your advice. I'm going to your site now to get a feeding kit, and will follow your guidance. I'm willing to do anything to see this guy through if he has any chance at all.
 
Thanks!

I just emailed you with a couple of questions. Please answer right away so I can get it right out to you.
 
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