Ultra Mystery...

[elaphe4herps]

So are you suspecting that Roylances Ultra is a homozygous ultra and not an ultramel imposter? As for Rich's golddust corn, looking at it now in this new light really does make it look like an ultramel caramel. Its almost like a butter, but has the black around the saddles and the dark eyes.

As for the other hypo test breedings, Joe are you talking about Carlos Lahette that doing the other x-mas and strawberry lines?

 

[ecreipeoj]

So are you suspecting that Roylances Ultra is a homozygous ultra and not an ultramel imposter? As for Rich's golddust corn, looking at it now in this new light really does make it look like an ultramel caramel. Its almost like a butter, but has the black around the saddles and the dark eyes.

As for the other hypo test breedings, Joe are you talking about Carlos Lahette that doing the other x-mas and strawberry lines?

Yes, Carlos Lahette has about 10 hypo test breeding that are due to hatch soon. Carlos dedicated a lot of his hypos to this project and will produce a lot of normals instead of hypos, but we should get loads of information from him. Simple test like Christmas X Standard that should have been done years ago and on an on.

I did not know it at the time, but the male Lava Corn that I sent him is het for Amel. This may add some information to the topic of this thread since he bred him to some "Ultras".

The only thing that I am a little confused about with Carlos' breedings is that he is totally convinced that the Strawberry Hypo and Ultra Hypos are the same since Jim called the Strawberry's Ultras at one time. I am not totally convinced of this. We can trace down the lineages of Carlos’ Ultra/Strawberry’s when the time comes. I do know that he has some from Jim and Falcon.

I just looked at Roylance's Ultra and Falcons Ultra side by side on my computer. They do look different and Roylance’s could be an Ultramel. It is so hard to tell. Falcons is yellow and orange and Roylance’s is red and gray. It could just be locality differences. Anybody’s guess is a good as mine. I really have not seen that many pictures of Ultras from Shiver’s and Falcon’s line. Since I don’t have any Ultras of any kind, anybody’s guess is probably a lot better than mine.

It would make since that some of the Ultra Caramels are Ultramel Caramels and that is why they look so similar to Butters, but with dark eyes. Which phenotype is which I have no idea. Right now, I think that the most interesting thing is just the Ultra/Ultramel X amel/Het amel breedings that are producing Hypos and Amels in the same clutch.

I would love to see Rich’s 2.1 Adult Ultras that he bought from Falcon. Are they really so ugly that you don’t want to show us pictures of them.

 

[Serpwidgets]

Back... we picked up an Anery Bloodred adult female from Chad Fuchs. (He had yearling and hatchling Caramel Bloods so we got to see those in person, too. Very nice.)

From SWR we picked up a pair of hatchling Strawberry Motley (that is, strawberry hypo with the motley pattern) and a yearling male "Strawberry hypo."

We'll get pictures of the Strawberries... our yearling male looks to me like it could pass as a sibling to Roylance's Ultra.

According to Jim (SWR), as far as he knows, his Strawberries do trace back to the "ultra" line that we're talking about in this thread. He didn't have any specific known crosses between those and any amelanistic corns. He doesn't have time to come online, which is unfortunate because he seems like he has a solid grasp on this stuff.

Chad also had bred an "Ultra Amber" (from the famous lines, of course) to a true butter motley this year and is waiting for the eggs to hatch. This should be either another "Ultramel X Amel" or "UltraHypo X Amel" breeding that will add to the collected data. (Our prediction is he will either get half butters half "ambers," or all "ambers." Anyone want to take bets on that? LOL.)

 

[SODERBERGD]

Short teaser 'till later. . .

I've been outta town 'till just now and am digesting all the posts since yesterday afternoon. I have to leave again and won't be back 'till late tonight, but when I return, I'll show you some other interesting "hypos" from animals I got from Sean Bradley. They are gold colored not unlike caramel variants and at the time I got them from him two years ago as hatchlings, he said they are from his possibly ?T+? line. I only bred one of his males to a couple of my females, but the results are very similar to what we're seeing in the ultras. I also bred a strawberry male from SWR to one or two females and noticed yesterday that one of those clutches was beginning to hatch. First one out was pretty bazaar looking. An amazing hypo.

"Film at eleven". . . .

 

[Serpwidgets]

Here are pictures of the yearling male. Keep in mind that the bloodline has been bred in isolation, in its own separate direction...

Assuming this is in fact the "Ultra" line, I think this is what the homozygous ones will most commonly look like... pretty similar to hypos as far as "amount of black reduction."

 

[Serpwidgets]

Strawberry yearling next to one of my own standard hypo hatchlings. They don't appear that different, do they? (I think the ultramels will be detectable, the eyes alone seem to be a huge clue.)

 

[Hurley]

Here are the two "Strawberry motley" hatchlings. No visible ruby eye in these two. The black is nearly absent, but is faintly visible in the head pattern.

Male:

Female:

 

[Edmund]

So Serp, if I read it right, are Jim's line of Strawberry corns Ultra and not standard type A hypo?

Thanks

 

[elaphe4herps]

I think that is what Serp is saying. And these ultras have been bred to each other in isolation for a while now right? Does the "Strawberry Hypo" you have serp have bug-eyes? they look similar to the leucism in rats.

 

[Serpwidgets]

Dunno, Hurley said it looked to have big eyes, too.

The others there didn't stand out like that (they had a nice adult-sized one, too) so if this is a bug-eyed individual I don't believe it's indicative of the rest of them.

 

[ecreipeoj]

I obtained a few more photos of some Ultras from Carlos Lahitte. The first one is of an “Ultra” Motley and the rest are of an “Ultra”. He obtained them from Falcon. I assume that the Ultra Motley is an Ultramel Motley like Kat’s, but the Motley gene may be having more of an effect than we think. They are both from Falcon’s line of Ultras anyway which is the topic of the thread.

Carlos is going to let me post his results of the Hypo Test Breeding Project. I will get to the none related results to this thread later, but here is an Ultra Breeding. So far the only Ultra clutch to hatch is from an Ultra X Christmas breeding. The Ultras Carlos has are from Falcons line and the Strawberrys are from Jims line, so we have that straight now.

9 eggs hatched from the clutch. He got 7 normals and 2 “regular” hypos. Carlos thinks that the Christmas are a line bred Standard Hypo, but time and testing will tell. The results of this cross are a little inconclusive. It would appear to me that the Ultra in this case was het for Standard Hypo and if the Christmas is a line bred Standard Hypo then the results would match these genetic types. Based upon our current Ultra Mystery Theory, if the Christmas is incompatible with the Ultra line, but it was het for Amel, the same results would be possible. I may be able to find out if it is possible for the Christmas to be het for Amel, if Carlos can get the info from the breeder of the Christmas hypos.

 

[SODERBERGD]

"Christmas"???

Will someone please show me what a "Christmas" corn looks like and why it's called that. Everytime I've asked for a pic of one, I just don't understand the name. They're never the same and I don't see anything in them that reminds me of Christmas. ???Shrugs???

 

[ecreipeoj]

I found another result from the Hypo Test Breeding Project that is related to the topic of this thread if we consider Strawberrys to be the same as Ultras. In all of Carlos’ conversations with Jim, Carlos believes that the Strawberrys are the same line based upon the information that Jim has given him.

Carlos bred a male Lava het for snow X Strawberry. The results were 7 normals and 1 anery out of 8 good eggs. This test helps confirm Kat’s results that the Lavas and Ultra/Strawberrys are incompatible.

It is unfortunate that no Ultramels were produced from this clutch which would have been possible since the Lava was het for amel, but there were just not enough hatchlings to be conclusive either way.

 

[elaphe4herps]

well, since there were no ultramels, maybe the starwberry is NOT the same as the ultra. because an known ultra X lava het snow would produce ultramels and normals. Not saying that his luck wasn't just bad on that clutch, but the results seems to suggest ultra and strawberry aren't the same. it's only one breeding though and only 8 eggs, so i know we'll need more tests.

 

[ecreipeoj]

Christmas Hypo from Bill Brant

Hey, I didn’t name this Common Named Hypo. Don’t blame me if they don’t remind you of Christmas Donald. They are red. :santa:

I never heard of the Christmas Hypos until Kathy Love told me about them and suggested that they would be a possible match to some of the other hypos. They are apparently known to some people in Florida.

Here is the story that I know about the Christmas Hypos. They are a line of hypo that Bill Brant of Gourmet Rodent has developed and sold under the name of “Christmas” Hypo. They came from Corns that were collected on Dausfuskie Island around 1990. I have spoke to Bill on the phone about them, but it was so long ago that I don’t remember what he told me and I have lost my notes.

Joe Hiduke was working at the Gourmet Rodent and was in charge of breeding the Snakes for a few years. He told Kathy Love, that the Christmas were bred to Standard Hypos and he “thought” all normals were produced. He also bred them to Ghost Corns which added the Standard Hypo and Anery A gene into some of the Christmas that they have been sold. That is all that I know except that Don HATES the Name. :santa:

 

[SODERBERGD]

Actually, I like the name alot . . .

Christmas is my favorite season of the year after the hatching season. I was told Christmas corns had green margins around red markings and with dark eyes, I just thought this was impossible. I don't dislike the name at all. I just had never seen one and was being told they had green margins. Now I know they're named for red hypos. They look so much like many hypos I've seen, I'd really like to know if someone has proven them to be non allelic to the other hypos.

Thanx.

 

[ecreipeoj]

well, since there were no ultramels, maybe the starwberry is NOT the same as the ultra. because an known ultra X lava het snow would produce ultramels and normals.

Statistically, only two may have been produced by the flip of a coin. Getting none from only 8 hatchlings would not surprise me in the least.

I don’t know what to think about the Ultra and Strawberry connection. Serp just talked to Jim in person and got the impressing that they were the same line as Falcons. Carlos has also talked to Jim and got the impression that they are the same line as Falcons.

Is it just because Jim called the Strawberry’s Ultras at one time and Serp and Carlos are getting the wrong impression or are they Ultras? When I talked to Jim on the phone for a very long time, I got the impression that he had called them Ultras, but they were not connected to Falcon. At least, Jim did not get his from Falcon or Shivers.

Jim told me that they were developed from some corns that he got from a Zoo. I could be totally wrong and perhaps Jim was talking about some completely different Corns. We did talk about the “Coral” Snows that he has quite a bit too and I may have mixed the two up, but I don‘t think so. I believe that Jim would have some breeding information about the Strawberrys X Amels if they are the same as the Ultras, he would have seen some of the Ultra Mystery results.

Don, you have dealt with Jim many times and have some of his Strawberry Hypos. What do you know or think about the Strawberry and Ultra connection?

It would be nice if somebody bred a Falcon Ultra to a Jim Strawberry and see what we get.

 

[ecreipeoj]

I'll show you some other interesting "hypos" from animals I got from Sean Bradley. They are gold colored not unlike caramel variants and at the time I got them from him two years ago as hatchlings, he said they are from his possibly ?T+? line. I only bred one of his males to a couple of my females, but the results are very similar to what we're seeing in the ultras. I also bred a strawberry male from SWR to one or two females and noticed yesterday that one of those clutches was beginning to hatch. First one out was pretty bazaar looking. An amazing hypo.

"Film at eleven". . . .

We have been sitting on pins and needles and checking this thread everytime eleven O'clock rolls around. Your tease is working big time. I want to see the "Amazing Hypo" and the simular results to the Ultra results! :crazy02:

 

[Kat]

I would say breeding trials are in order before we make any assumptions about strawberry and ultra... Without pairing the two morphs together to see what offspring arise, I think it would be unwise to start lumping in data from strawberry pairings with the ultra pairings. Word-of-mouth claims aren't enough to proclaim them one and the same, especially since the data from the strawberry pairing seems inconsistant with the ultra. It's a breeding cross we DO need to do, however. I also suggest we keep track of the strawberry pairing data, but in a separate context. If the two morphs later prove one and the same, the data can be combined, but for now it should stay separate.

-Kat

 

[SODERBERGD]

Strawberries . . .

I've been breeding them for three years now, but confess that I've never bred them to anything but strawberries. I got a couple of anerythristics over the years, but never an amelanistic yet. This year, I bred to one I got in Orlando years ago they were calling a "pumpkin". Nobody has proven the so-called "pumpkins" to be a different gene or that they are anything but another variation of the classic hypo. Not that I'm aware of, that is. Once the babies from those two snakes shed, I'll show them here on the forum.

When Jim first sold me some strawberries years ago, he wasn't sure what to call them. At that time, we discussed that if there was such a thing as T+ albino, these behaved like that expectation color-wise. Much has changed just since last year so everybody's gonna be rethinking "HYPO" corns. After I speak to Sean today, I'll show you some animals produced from animals I got from him. It's possible that ultra gene is in his line too. As is so often the case, many breeders across the country and around the world produce new corns at the same time that aren't as unique as they think. It's sure happened to me. Sometimes it's from a manifestation or sequential timing of many breeders crossing to the just right snake in the same season for the complex or "new" corn to be produced. Sometimes they don't know others are working on them and give them a new name. I realize that is the very essence of what this thread is about. Also, if I get something that appears to be new, it usually didn't come from a wild caught corn. If I produced this "new corn" from snakes I bought from so and so, then others got snakes from so and so also. Hence, I think we're going to see this ultra line all over the place. Because people bred them to different snakes, it makes sense we're going to see different shades and colors of the same snake. Of course, this'll add to the confusion and frustration of identifying it EXCEPT that if this snake is codominant, it won't matter what colors are out there. We'll still know the snake by it's heriditary behavior. At least for now we will. In another few generations, who knows what cruel variations of this line will be tossed in our faces?