Ultra vs Ultramel . . .

[Mrs InsaneOne]

Haha, Jenn got PWND! :grin01:

*hangs head* Where's the 'sticks foot in mouth' emoticon when you need it!?

But then, this just reinforces my desire to learn all of the genetics properly. And reminds me why I like hanging out in the shadows and lurking! lol


Jenn

 

[ecreipeoj]

Ultra vs Ultramel

I was setting up this clutch of an Ultramel Motley het Caramel X Caramel het Ultra today and thought about this thread. There is a pair of each of the topic of this thread. There is an Ultra and Ultramel, and an Ultra Caramel and Goldust. In this case, there is a clear and distinctive difference in the phenotypes. Perhaps if they were all homo for Hypo, it would not be as clear, but these are not even het for Hypo.

 

[ecreipeoj]

Ultra Caramel vs Goldust

The different phenotypes are just as obvious between the Ultra Caramel and Goldust (Ultramel Caramel) in this clutch. I realized that this is only one example from one clutch and only four specimens, but if Ultra was dominant over Amel, then we would not be able to see these two clear phenotypes ever.

 

[ecreipeoj]

I thought I should sex the above comparisons, since the question will undoubtedly come up. Both Ultramels are males and both Ultras are females, so that would support a difference due to their sex, but I think it is just a coincidence. I do think that it could help to further separated the two different phenotypes however.

 

[Serpwidgets]

I thought I should sex the above comparisons, since the question will undoubtedly come up. Both Ultramels are males and both Ultras are females, so that would support a difference due to their sex, but I think it is just a coincidence. I do think that it could help to further separated the two different phenotypes however.

It could be that these are just variations and not necessarily ultra and ultramel, as assumed. Is the whole (hypo portion of the) clutch split into two phenotypes like this?

It might end up going either way depending on the clutch. It will definitely help to see more results and see how often ultra/ultramel clutches appear to be "split" versus how much variation shows up clutches that have only ultramels (or only ultras) in them.

 

[bryanc]

Joe those borders on the Ultras :cheers: are very impressive.

Anyway, this thread has been interesting for sure and I am glad I am fattening up my own Ultramel. I feel like I can't contribute to this discussion until he sires some clutches for me.

 

[ecreipeoj]

It could be that these are just variations and not necessarily ultra and ultramel, as assumed. Is the whole (hypo portion of the) clutch split into two phenotypes like this?

It might end up going either way depending on the clutch. It will definitely help to see more results and see how often ultra/ultramel clutches appear to be "split" versus how much variation shows up clutches that have only ultramels (or only ultras) in them.

That is all the Ultra based morphs in this clutch. The rest of the clutch were 5 Caramels. This same pair produced a little larger first clutch and the same Ultra vs. Ultramel phenotypes were in the first clutch. The only differences between this clutch and the first one is that there were a few Normals in the first clutch.

It is also possible that the Ultra and Ultramel phenotypes are very different and in the clutches where there is no discernable difference, the parents genotype could have been misidentified. Deathy was the father of this clutch and his genotype is certain. The Caramel het Ultra did not have any history passed on to me, except for the suspected genotype. The clutches this pair have produced match that of the two genotypes of these parents.

 

[ecreipeoj]

I have been thinking about another possibility. When I first ran into some “T+ Albinos” at a show, the Ultra Mystery Thread was in full bloom. There was one guy at the show that had a Hypo, that when bred to each other produced Amels, Hypos and what I believe were Ultramels. There were three phenotypes so I assumed that he had Ultras. Another guy that I have known for awhile (Rick Staub) had some T+ on his table.

Of course the first guy saw the T+ and thought his were the same thing. I talked with Rick about his breeding results and he told me that when he breeds T+ X T+ the clutches are 100% T+. We went over and over it, because I told him that he should be producing Amels in the clutches and a hypo phenotype. No matter how convencing I tried to be, Rick stuck to his guns and told me that he had bred them for several years now and T+ X T+ = 100% T+. Rick is a pretty smart guy. What if he is right?

We have always assumed that the “T+ Albinos” were in fact Ultramels, but what if they just looked like them, but are a different type of hypo? They may or may not even be compatible with Amel.

 

[TandJ]

Oh great.. Now this is going to really mess with my mind Joe and Serp.. The "ultra/ultramels" I got were sold to me as T+.. I remember the disccusion a few monthes back about T+... Now what? 2 possibilities? How to prove them apart initially and what to test breed them with...

Regards.. Tim of T and J

 

[SODERBERGD]

Did he . . .

We have always assumed that the “T+ Albinos” were in fact Ultramels, but what if they just looked like them, but are a different type of hypo? They may or may not even be compatible with Amel.

Did her test breed them to all the known hypos? What if he was just breeding a "look" of one of the other hypos? That would yield 100% of what the parents are. I refer to strawberries. Once thought to be T+ albinos, they turned out not to be. Well, I guess we're not completely sure what they are yet. Unless I've missed a thread on them. I just know I get albinos along with the strawberries everytime I breed my strawberries together and an older female I used to have produced some aneries also. Never ghosts.

BTW, Serp. I forgot to tell you when I bred the anery from a strawberry to the amber, I got 50/50. Half normals and half hypos. What's your read on that?

Don
www.cornsnake.NET

 

[ecreipeoj]

Did her test breed them to all the known hypos? What if he was just breeding a "look" of one of the other hypos? That would yield 100% of what the parents are.
Don
www.cornsnake.NET

What is the history of the parents of the topic of this thread? I remember you sending me some photos of some awesome looking “Ultramel Motleys”, that you picked up, but how do we know they are Ultramels? I didn’t get the impression that much was known about them. Did you test them to other known hypos or to Amel?

 

[SODERBERGD]

History . . .

What is the history of the parents of the topic of this thread? I remember you sending me some photos of some awesome looking “Ultramel Motleys”, that you picked up, but how do we know they are Ultramels? I didn’t get the impression that much was known about them. Did you test them to other known hypos or to Amel?

Well, every albino I've bred the males to produces 1/2 clutches of amels and 1/2 clutches of ultramels. It turns out that at least two of the females are actually ultra motlies. I got them almost three years ago. One is the grandsire of the ultramel bloods Mark Perkins produced. I bred one of the ultramel motley males to a bloodred and Mark got some of the babies. One of those sired his ultramel bloods this year.

Don
www.cornsnake.NET

 

[SODERBERGD]

Eyes. . .

Like your gold dusts, the pupil is the most obvious distinguishing feature between an ultra and an ultramel. These are some of the motlies produced by an ultra motley X ultramel motley. Black pupil on the ultras and reddish pupil on the ultramels.

 

[stephen]

dont believe you can tell a difference

I think alot of you will be surprised when you breed the darker ones in your clutches to a amel and produce both amels and ultramels,I am not saying the all the dark ones arent ultra,but my money is that some of the dark ones are also ultramel,here is a pic of a Ultramel eye (black)

 

[SODERBERGD]

I think alot of you will be surprised when you breed the darker ones in your clutches to a amel and produce both amels and ultramels,I am not saying the all the dark ones arent ultra,but my money is that some of the dark ones are also ultramel,here is a pic of a Ultramel eye (black)

Of course, all the red pupils turn black as they mature. The red pupil/black pupil test only works as neonates. Anything's possible with newly discovered genes, but so far, all the ones that started out with red pupils are ultramels. I'd be surprised there are exceptions to this. I've raised several dozen of these and all the ones with red pupils as neonates now have black pupils.

Don
www.cornsnake.NET

 

[stephen]

breedings

Well, that will be good if we can tell the difference between the two,I have done a breeding from goldust to snow and got two ultramels with darker eyes,the goldust male still has amel looking eyes and then one breeding with the above ultramel and all the ultramels have very amel looking eyes.So I havent got any consistent results. :shrugs:

 

[ecreipeoj]

Here is a comparison between a known 2005 Goldust Motley and a 2006 Ultra Caramel Motley. The age difference doesn’t help the comparison, but there are some obvious differences. The main difference is the amount of retained melanin. The eyes are still very different and you can see some melanin around the blotches on the Ultra Caramel Motley, but almost none on the Goldust Motley.

Also, the back ground color is different. I know there is going to be variation, but the Goldust has a slightly translucent reddish color to its yellow background color and the Ultra Caramels color is a flat yellow color. The same seems to be true with the Ultra and Ultramel differences, but not yellow of course.

The Goldust Motley in this comparison was produced from a proven Ultramel Motley het Caramel X Butter Motley. The Ultra Caramel Motleys parent’s genetics were questionable, but were most likely a Hypo Ultra Caramel Motley X Ultra Motley, OR Goldust Motley X Ultra Caramel Motley. A sibling to the Ultra Caramel Motley in this comparison, which looks exactly like my male, was bred to several Butter Motleys this year and 100% Goldust Motleys were produced. I have several clutches still incubation from this Ultra Caramel Motley X Amels to prove him out.

 

[ecreipeoj]

The reason I brought up the possibility that there is another very similar hypo gene to Ultra, that may or may not be compatible with Amels are these Ultralites and some people are not seeing much of a differnce in clutches that should contain Ultras and Ultramels.

I fully expected Ultramel Anerys to look like these, but they did not, so what are these Ultralites? They trace back to Andy Barr’s Frosteds, which he created with some combo of Gray Rat/Corn/ and Ultra. Are they just an Ultramel Anery that is homo for Hypo? OR something else? Obviously, there is the hypo gene involved in this first clutch, because there are Snows, Anerys, Ghosts, and the Ultralite in the middle. You need to zoom in on the photo, because it looks like a Snow at first glance, but it has tiny bit of melanin left. I believe the breedings was a Snow het Hypo X Ghost/Gray Rat het Ultra, so the Hypo gene in this mix really changed the Utramel Anery quite a bit. What would it do if added to an Ultra or Ultramel?

 

[ecreipeoj]

Here is another example I found from a different breeder. The background on the parents of these snakes are about the same as the ones above, except it is most likely a breeding of an Ultra Anery/Gray Rat het hypo X Snow/Gray Rat het Hypo or a similar combo that will produce Ultralites, Ultramel Anerys OR Ultra Anerys, Ghosts and Snows in the same clutches.

Is this “Ruby Snow”, which looks very similar to the Ultralite, just an Ultramel Anery homo for Hypo, and if so, then the Hypo gene in our mixes of Ultras and Ultramels, will really mess things up.

 

[stephen]

goldust

Here is a goldust (ultramel) his eyes are still amel looking at almost 3 years old and also the pic of one of my ultramel lavenders he almost looks to be a amel except for the little color around his borders,I think thats a big reason I like them, they look alot like amels,I hope his eyes dont turn black on this guy. :cheers: