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What happened?

T

TribalWolf77

New member
I wish I weren't posting this, but I need to vent / ask some advice.

We came home Friday afternoon to find both of our little corns dead in their tanks. :awcrap: As far as I know, we didn't do anything wrong. Each little one had it's own viv (10 gallon with Aspen and lots of hides). The vivs were kept at the proper temps. They were given fresh spring water daily. They were fed every 6 days. They were barely handled and showed no signs of illness. We took all the precautions when handling (washing our hands, anti-bacterial lotion). They were a part of our family for less than a month.

So how, exactly, do 2 seemingly healthy baby snakes just drop dead? I don't get it. They weren't abused or neglected, but why do I feel like we did something wrong?

We went back to the store today to see if any of their other snakes had any health issues. The manager informed me that they've been having problems with mites. He blamed the Aspen, and told me it has mite eggs in it (eh?). Thing is there's no signs of mites in any of the vivs we have. I have demanded that both snakes be given a necrotopsy to rule out crypto. The manager will be calling me Tuesday, and told me that we will eventually be able to get replacements for the ones that passed. Not really the point ... I just want to make sure that my 2 adults will not be getting ill, and I'd like to make sure that their other animals will not suffer a similar fate.

Can an infestation of mites kill a little snake? How do I check my adults? Like I said, there's no sign of mites in their vivs, but I've never had to deal with mites either. What exactly should I be looking for? It's feeding night, so it's a real good time for a thorough inspection.

What happens if it's crypto? I don't even want to think about it, but I have a responsibility to ensure the health of my snakes.

I'm just beside myself right now, and not sure what to do.
 
Was there any new environmental factor in the house; pest treatment, over-heated non-stick cookware, room deodorizer, anything like that? It is very odd that they would both die the exact same day. I'm sorry...

There are mites that live in aspen and other bedding, but they aren't the kind that feed on snakes. I would think that if you had such a severe snake mite infestation that they could kill a snake, you could hardly miss them on the snake.
 
Since they both died at the same time I would think it extremely coincidental if it was an illness. It seems to lead to something environmental.
If there were no new factors like Nanci said, then the only thing that changed was the water.
That's about as far as my logic goes.
 
I would think that you would of notice the mites before their death.
Sounds more like him or his supplyer is at fault.
Is he paying for the testing?
 
Wow, thanks for the quick replies!

No, no new environmental factors, no air fresheners, nothing like that. If it was the water, then all 4 of my snakes should be dead, as they all get it from the same bottle. I only give them spring water. The two adults will not drink tap. We tried once ... Hashie pooped in her water dish, lol.

The two little ones were housed together when we bought them, which is why I suspect that they might have had the same illness.
 
Lennycorn said:
I would think that you would of notice the mites before their death.
Sounds more like him or his supplyer is at fault.
Is he paying for the testing?
Click to expand...

Yes, he's offered to pay for the testing.

We just inspected the adults and the vivs ... not one sign of mites.
 
TribalWolf77 said:
The two little ones were housed together when we bought them, which is why I suspect that they might have had the same illness.
Click to expand...

That does make sense, it could take the same amount of time to run it's course if they got it at the same time.
I thought maybe it was something the little ones couldn't handle but the adults could.
 
I am wondering if it was something to do with the food? Two snakes dying could be some kind of contamination regarding the feeders. It had to be something fairly serious, for it to affect both the same way. I would think if it had something to do with environment, that one may die and the other may show signs of illness. Different animals react differently to environmental factors.

Just a thought

Wayne
 
TribalWolf77 said:
Is this possible? I've fed them both pre-packaged F/T pinks (Gourmet Rodent from PetCo).
Click to expand...

First off, I am very sorry for your loss. I realize that this is tough! It's a terrible thing that has happened and made worse because you do not know. Again, I am sorry!

With that said, anything is possible my friend. It really could be a possibility that something was wrong with the food. I really cannot foresee some environmental cause for two snakes to die, who were seemingly healthy. Unless they were siblings and had identical congenital defects or something was introduced, to them that had the same effect.

I am not a vet and I cannot say for sure. I am just trying to help you make sense of the situation, by asking you to look at anything that could be possible.

Again, I am sorry,

Wayne
 
The main thing I can think of is something environmental - most likely airborne - and in a small quantity that would kill hatchlings and not adults. Have any of the neighbours been doing any outside work, like painting, using creosote or pesticides? Has there been anyone outside mending the road? Any fumes that could have come in through air vents or windows?

Otherwise, do you know if they were related - from the same clutch? It's possible that they both had a developmental problem that only affected them when they reached a certain size. Seemingly-healthy hatchlings do sometimes die for no apparent reason after a few weeks or months. However, it would be a huge coincidence for them to die at exactly the same time.

I do hope it's not crypto, as that's airborne and would most likely affect your adults.

I agree that it's unlikely to be mites if you haven't seen any. It would take a major infestation to drain enough blood to kill even a hatchling, and it's too much of a coincidence that they both passed on at exactly the same time.

Personally, I wouldn't be getting replacements from a store that admitted to a mite problem or to selling infested aspen (although that sounds like a load of hooey to me).
 
I am sorry for your loss. It sounds more than a coincidence that both hatchlings died at the same time. It could be an illness, but since neither showed any signs beforehand, I would doubt it. An environmental cause comes to mind first. Are the heat sources to both hatchling vivs connected in any way? I know you said the temps were normal, but you have no idea what can happen quickly while you are away. Did you double-check everything upon discovering the dead hatchlings? Are their vivs located by a window or a heating vent? Just an hour of sun shining through a window into a viv can raise temps dramatically enough to kill a hatchling. The same for heat from a vent. Airborne toxins are also suspect, as has already been mentioned. Check with all people in the house to make sure no one was using any non-stick cookware recently or anything that may be toxic. Did you recently clean the vivs and perhaps did not rinse them thoroughly or use a new cleaner? Had your heating been serviced recently? I"m just throwing out possibilities just in case. I know you don't want your other snakes to have any problems. Do a thorough triple check of everything with them. I can't hurt.
 
bitsy said:
I do hope it's not crypto, as that's airborne and would most likely affect your adults.
Click to expand...

Crypto is not airborne.

Here is a detailed thread on Crypto (including quotes/scans from veterinarian journals).

The short and sweet of it is their are three strains of Crypto that affect reptiles (C. serpentis, C. muris & C. parvum), transmission occurs by fecal-oral route and the condition is terminal. It takes three negative tests to be sure an animal does not have Crypto because you can get false negatives if the snake is not shedding oocysts. Crypto is highly contagious. It should also be noted that reptile Crypto is not transferable to humans just as human Crypto is not transferable to reptiles (human Crypto btw is not terminal).
 
So sorry for your loss!

I have to agree that it seems a big coincidence that both babies would die at the same time, especially since they showed no signs of illness beforehand. It seems more likely that SOMETHING environmental happened - as mentioned already, older, well established snakes may be able to withstand some toxin or problem that killed babies that are still under stress from adjusting to a new home. Maybe the necropsy will show something.

My guess is also that it could have been something like a heater malfunction or something similar. I once had a customer who lost 4 new babies overnight. Turned out that he had his carpets cleaned the day before - I would not have thought that would do it, but they seemed perfect one day, and were dead after the carpet cleaning.

Back when I used to use No Pest Strips for mites, there was a time when I used a little too much, and killed a bunch of babies. But the adults were fine. They seem more resistant to some toxins than babies are.

Although snake mites are not normally transported with aspen, they could have come from the pet shop, and might not have migrated to the older snakes yet. So it is possible that the babies could have had an infestation that could have stressed them a lot so that some minor problem did them in. If the babies were normal or dark colored, rather than albino, you might not have noticed them on your snakes, and they may be gone now that your babies are gone.

Hope you can figure it out, and don't have any further problems.

Good luck!
 
TripleMoonsExotic said:
Crypto is not airborne.

Here is a detailed thread on Crypto (including quotes/scans from veterinarian journals).

The short and sweet of it is their are three strains of Crypto that affect reptiles (C. serpentis, C. muris & C. parvum), transmission occurs by fecal-oral route and the condition is terminal. It takes three negative tests to be sure an animal does not have Crypto because you can get false negatives if the snake is not shedding oocysts. Crypto is highly contagious. It should also be noted that reptile Crypto is not transferable to humans just as human Crypto is not transferable to reptiles (human Crypto btw is not terminal).
Click to expand...

This and the link should be a sticky
thanks
 
Thank you all so much!

I can't think of anything in the environment that would be of any harm to them. No construction, pesticides, etc. The only thing is the girls put their perfume on in the living room, across from all the vivs.

The only thing the vivs had in common was their setup and location, in the living room across from a bay window that doesn't receive direct sunlight (the shade's always down as well). They were against an interior wall that doesn't have a heat register. Temps were always checked several times a day, and they were always acceptible. In fact, our adults were housed in these exact same vivs while they were wee little things.

No idea if they are siblings. As this is PetCo, I'm sure they don't keep records of where their animals are from. I have been offered replacements, but I'm going to be asking for a refund and take my business elsewhere. We do still have some of the pinks we bought for them in the freezer.

I guess I'll have to wait for the results of the necropsy. In the meantime, I'll be keeping a very guarded eye on our other 2 and looking for environmental factors. What kind of behavoir should I be looking for that would be a sign of illness?
 
I would seperate the other snakes from the area the little ones were in case there is a hidden environmental factor at cause.
The adults may be suffering but being adults it may take longer to show than in the little ones.
 
Continue to check for mites - there could be some walking around for a while, but the numbers can take a while to build up before you notice them. If you move the remaining snakes into another room, you could treat the "old" room with insecticide (such as Sevin dust) "just in case".

If your snakes are eating and digesting well, it is a good indication that they feel pretty good. If they stop eating, or regurge, or have any other strange digestion problems, it COULD be a sign of a problem (although sometimes they do go off feed now and then, depending on the season.)

Good luck!
 
kathylove said:
Continue to check for mites - there could be some walking around for a while, but the numbers can take a while to build up before you notice them. If you move the remaining snakes into another room, you could treat the "old" room with insecticide (such as Sevin dust) "just in case".

If your snakes are eating and digesting well, it is a good indication that they feel pretty good. If they stop eating, or regurge, or have any other strange digestion problems, it COULD be a sign of a problem (although sometimes they do go off feed now and then, depending on the season.)

Good luck!
Click to expand...

Kathy, just a thought. Since there isn't any "known" environmental changes, temp spikes or dips, evidence of mites or another parasite or not something that could be wrong with the food. What about Carbon Monoxide? Could that affect the animals, especially the smaller ones first?

Tribal, do you have a CO2 detector in the house?

I could be way off, but just a thought,

Wayne
 
I'm so sorry for your loss! Unfortunately I don't really have anything to add since everyone else has pretty much said everything I could. I just wanted to pass along my condolensances and give you a hug!

(((((HUG)))))
 
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