Why I Hate Hybrids - Controversial

[starsevol]

The idea of "jungle-corns" and "puebla-corns" has always been distasteful to me. You know that feeling that some things just "should not be done"? Up until recently however, I had never been so adamantly against hybrids as I am now. And I will tell you why.....

You will notice that in my profile I list 2 rootbeer corns. If I am so against hybrids, how can that be? Well let me tell you.....

I purchased my first cornsnake at a reptile show 9 years ago. It was a yearling male and was sold as an amel. He had no white on his dorsal surface, but was a dazzling orange with red saddles. Basically a sunglow, which technically is an amel.
About 4 months later I decided that "Calvin" needed a mate. I ended up at an EXTREMELY small local reptile show. (Remember, this was 9 years ago). I arrived late and by the time I got there there was only one amel hatchling left for sale (and roughly a dozen normals). So I bought it...and "she" turned out to be a "he". A beautiful reverse okeetee (also sold to me as an amel).
So the following year I purchased "Katie". She was a yearling normal, het for amel and definately a female. I got her from a small private breeder.
Time went on....I bred Katie and kept one of her offspring. And since then I have bred both numerous times and have sold the offspring privately and to a well-run local privately owned pet shop in town.
When I got Katie, I did not know that a "creamsicle" is not a cornsnake. And she was normal colored, how could she be a creamsicle? The breeder I got Kate from bred creamsicles. And 9 years ago there was nothing called a "rootbeer" corn, at least as far as I know. What if my girl was a normally colored "by-product" of producing creamsicles? It is likely. I will NEVER know for sure if Katie and Keeper are pure corns or rootbeers. I will NEVER know for sure whether their offspring were bred. I will NEVER know for sure if because of MY actions corns in my area with emoryi blood are being sold as pure corns. And if this happened to me, how many others all over the country has it happened to?

The hybriders laugh at people who want "pure" corns. They say that the corn bloodlines are so polluted that getting a "pure" corn is a crap shoot. And they might be right. I myself can't tell a nelson milksnake from a pueblan or a sinaloan. And grey banded kings come in so many locality morphs they are hard to tell apart as well. I can look at a snake and if it "doesnt look right" to me I know it's probably a hybrid....but how many hybrids resemble one of their parent species? It just seems that hybrid breeders are tinkering with biological erector sets and blurring all kinds of lines. I would hate to see other species become as genetically damaged by hybrids as corns seem to have become.

I will probably never breed Katie or Keeper again. If I do, their offspring will be labeled as creamsicles and rootbeers even though I will never know for sure what they are.

 

[princess]

Hmmm, you're very free to have your opinions and have a rant (we all need to from time to time) and I must agree that I like 'em pure too BUT... If you can't be sure that Katie and Keeper are rootbeers for sure, how can you lable them as such? If you want to sell the offspring as rootbeers, you might be better breeding Katie to a creamsicle so that at least you KNOW that there's Emoryi blood in there...

....my 0.04c

 

[starsevol]

Because they look like pure corns and ...I have to call them something! I don't want to go on the assumption that they are pure when they very well might not be. People who want a nice pet, or dont care if it might be a hybrid, will not care if it "might" be part emoryi. A purist wants to know for sure what hes getting, and since I myself would not know what he might be getting I think its better to err on the side of rootbeer.

 

[jzal8]

Yea I understand you're mad, and it definitly does stink, but i really wouldnt be all that upset about this. I think hating hybrid's over a mistake like this is a bit over the top IMHO.
Either way you are producing beautiful snakes and now you just know that you can label them even more correctly in the future And hey, why not start trying to produce creamsicles now like princess suggested. Then not only will you know for sure that you have a hybrid, but you will also make quite a bit more cash I am willing to bet.

 

[Serpwidgets]

Keep in mind that this is all based on circular logic:

I don't like hybrids, therefore hybrids are bad, therefore I hate hybrids, therefore hybrids are bad, therefore...

It's fine as an opinion, but it doesn't go beyond that point. I don't have a problem with anyone having an opinion, but many of the "I hate hybrids" statements are asserted as the foundation of other arguments, as if it is something more than an opinion and that they are intrinsically "bad" in some way.

Also note that the same line of reasoning can be applied to mixing locality corns:

I don't like "Okeetee X Florida" corns. I just don't feel this is right. When people breed an okeetee to another corn, it might not be identifiable as a mix, and someone might get what they think is an okeetee, but it really isn't, and this harms them. Therefore, all breeding of okeetee corns to other corns is bad.

 

[cka]

Just put an * asterisk next to any progeny produced, leading to an explanation along the lines of "* unsure of parent's background". Many more folks just want a nice pet snake vs. those who pull their hair out over whether or not their lines are pure.

There is pretty much no way short of some sort of DNA testing that you will know whether or not your lines are "pure". Breeders have mixed and mated varying rat snakes to corns over the years; ever wonder where all that "space garbage" i.e. leftover went? Straight to the pet industry, here in the States or abroad, or even released into the wild. It has been admitted that cbb corns have been released back into the wild from NJ to FL, along their entire range. I'm sure some of these have survived to mate amongst themselves or with wild corns. The debate over the "purity" of the Ultra's and Ultramels continues, leading some breeders to sell their breeding stock off rather than be faced with this prospect.

If you want to work with a "pure" species of snake, head to Texas, go out into the middle of nowhere, and find yourself a pair of unpopular snakes to work with. Barring that, there is just no way to work with a "pure" line, and if you want to continue to work with corns, it's just something you have to accept :shrugs:

ps. My avatar is a highly frosted anery A...hybrid?...breeder (pretty well respected one) seems to think it isn't...myself???...well, it's kids will get the "*" and be sold as "I just don't know's"

 

[starsevol]

WEll, granted I am somewhat of a hothead. I do have the red hair!
I think the vast morphs and easy disposition of the corn tempts hybrid breeders more than any other species. And I think creamsicles have created a problem, I mean how far back in a snakes lineage does a cream have to be before a snake is considered "pure"? It seems you never REALLY know what youre getting if you buy a corn anymore, does it have to be that way with every species?

Someone called me the other day. He got my number from someone he bought a corn from who had originally bought it from me. He wanted to know if I had "any other miamis" to breed it to. It was one of Katie's babies. I told him I had reason to believe it might be a rootbeer. He didnt know what O rootbeer was. When I explained he said that he STILL wanted to buy a miami as a mate for it so he could breed miamis.....I was speechless...

 

[Kat]

You won't find as many rabid hybrid-haters on these forum, starsevol. That's not to say there aren't people who dislike hybrids here... but they're generally polite enough to avoid getting in the face of people discussing hybrids/hybridization.

I say this because I know you're used to the forums over on that other site where if someone so much as mentions the very idea of hybridization, they get set upon by the anti-hybrid pack.

As for my stance on hybridization... if the snake is so similar to a 'pure' corn that you can't tell the difference, then what IS the difference? I'm not a big fan of emoryi influence in cornsnake appearance, but if a hybrid is so close to cornsnake that you couldn't identify it out of a lineup, then it may as well be a cornsnake for all intents and purposes. Plus... some of the more extreme hybrids, like jungle corns, can be quite pretty in and of their own right.

-Kat

 

[Kat]

Here's a set of hypothetical questions for you, starsevol...

Let's say that some scientist sequences the cornsnake genome. He's able to figure out 100% of the cornsnake genes out there, and sticks them into a computerized database, labelling them all with a 'C' for cornsnake. He also sequences the emoryi rat genome and figures out 100% of all the emoryi ratsnake genes, putting them in the same database, labelling them all with an 'E'. LOTS of them are going to be the exact same genes that are labelled 'C' already, so he changes those labels to an 'A' to signify that they're common amongst ALL pantherophis in the database.
Since the As are the same in both cases, we can ignore them when talking about corns vs. emoryis vs. creamsicles and only talk about the separate C and E genes.

So corns, emoryis, and creams might look like the following, since each gene exists in pairs...

Cornsnake = CC CC CC CC
Emoryi = EE EE EE EE
50% Creamsicle = CE CE CE CE

Scenario 1:
Fred buys creamsicle, and has its genetics tested. The database shows that it is a 50% creamsicle. Fred also has a cornsnake that he caught from the wild, and has it tested. It comes back as pure corn. If Fred breeds his cornsnake to his emoryi, he'll get a bunch of offspring. Some possible outcomes are CE CC CC CE, CC CE CE CE, CC CC CC CE, and CC CC CE CE (Fred only got four hatchlings out of his clutch).
Fred then gets these offspring tested to find out which one(s) have the highest percentage of cornsnake genes. Fred then breeds CC CC CC CE to his cornsnake and gets CC CC CC CC and CC CC CC CE's for offspring. (Granted this is over-simplified and would likely take many more generations, but this is the general idea....)
Fred then tests the offspring and finds out that the CC CC CC CC snake has ZERO 'E' genes. Every gene in that offspring is in the cornsnake genome.

Is this snake still a hybrid?



Situation 2:

Fred has two cornsnakes he caught himself when they were hatchlings (so no chance of retained sperm). He has both of them tested, and both turn out to be CC CC CC CC, pure corn. Fred breeds his two cornsnakes together. Somewhere in the breeding process, a gene somewhere gets mutated and one of the offspring that hatches out winds up with a C gene converted to an E gene. This offspring has a genotype of CC CC CC CE. Fred gets this snake tested and it comes back that there is an emoryi gene in his F1 generation snake.

Is this snake a hybrid?



-Kat

 

[E. g. guttata]

Because they look like pure corns and ...I have to call them something! I don't want to go on the assumption that they are pure when they very well might not be. People who want a nice pet, or dont care if it might be a hybrid, will not care if it "might" be part emoryi. A purist wants to know for sure what hes getting, and since I myself would not know what he might be getting I think its better to err on the side of rootbeer.

1)This corn is pure-looking
2)Many pure-looking corns are, in fact, hybrids
A)Therefore, I cannot sell this snake as a pure corn based on looks alone, for it is most likely a hybrid.


3)Some pure corns may look like hybrids (dependant on individual snake)
4)This corn looks like a hybrid
B)Therfore, I cannot sell this snake as a hybrid by looks alone, because there is a chance that it is pure.

A)I cannot sell this snake as a pure corn based on looks alone, for it is most likely a hybrid.
B)I cannot sell this snake as a hybrid by looks alone, because there is a chance that is is pure.
!!)Therefore, I cannot sell any snake based on looks alone because I cannot be sure if it is a hybrid or if it is pure. I must know all genetics behind any animal to determine if it is pure or not to be able to accurately sell it as such.

This kind of logic I have just demonstrated is self-destructive. Could you have potentially sold hybrids as pure and "polluted" a large portion of pure lines? Yes. That is always a possibility. HOWEVER! If you sell these snakes as hybrids, and they are in fact pure, you have now "polluted" lines of hybrids many people are breeding. THERFORE! The only way to possibly label these snakes correctly and not cross either of these lines is to label them as "from the genus pantherophis". That will allow you to cover all bases, and if someone asks if they are pure or not, you are obligated to answer "!!)". If this is the only way you can deal with breeding snakes, so be it, but don't get too caught up in the fact that you MAY have a hybrid. Just answer or label "!!)". I personally don't get too caught up in this purist movement for the logic used above. You cannot tell with 100% certainty wheather your snake is a hybrid or is pure by looks alone, though you can guess with 75% accuracy that it is likely.

SUMMATION- Don't sell them as pure because you cannot be sure, but don't sell them as hybrids because you cannot be sure. Just sell them as "from the genus pantherophis". Or, if that may not be wide enough, sell them as snakes, that appear to be corns, though you cannot be sure. Find a definition that covers your paranoia, but don't get caught up in details.

 

[Joejr14]

Scenario 1:
Fred buys creamsicle, and has its genetics tested. The database shows that it is a 50% creamsicle. Fred also has a cornsnake that he caught from the wild, and has it tested. It comes back as pure corn. If Fred breeds his cornsnake to his emoryi, he'll get a bunch of offspring. Some possible outcomes are CE CC CC CE, CC CE CE CE, CC CC CC CE, and CC CC CE CE (Fred only got four hatchlings out of his clutch).
Fred then gets these offspring tested to find out which one(s) have the highest percentage of cornsnake genes. Fred then breeds CC CC CC CE to his cornsnake and gets CC CC CC CC and CC CC CC CE's for offspring. (Granted this is over-simplified and would likely take many more generations, but this is the general idea....)
Fred then tests the offspring and finds out that the CC CC CC CC snake has ZERO 'E' genes. Every gene in that offspring is in the cornsnake genome.

Is this snake still a hybrid?
-Kat

Wut? If the creamsicle is 50% emory, and it's mated with a pure corn---all of those offspring are 25% emory---there's no variance between the 4 offspring. There is no way to mate those offspring back to each other to ever to recover a snake that has no emory blood in it---it's impossible.

 

[WAS1]

I can understand the point being made about pure corns, but hybrids do occur naturally in the wild were territories of snakes in the same genus overlap. It can also have a good effect as it introduces new genes to sometimes tired gene pools.
I bred from a female jungle corn and the offspring are superb. Feed like wolves. docile when handled and appear to be very robust and hardy, as well as vividly coloured. Everything an owner wants.
The king snake genes seem to have injected something into them that wasn`t there before.
So I have no problem with it, as long as people are advised what their buying.

 

[starsevol]

Just my opinion...and you KNOW what opinions are like....

In case one, genetically it would not be a hybrid....BUT so far nature has not learned how to seperate genes, so where do you draw the line? How far back do you go? I am 1/16 french but its there!

In case 2...if the E gene is a natural mutation, it is like any other mutation, and the corn would still be pure.

btw, that "other" place is not as hybrid hating as you might think...
My account was locked shortly after someone over there called my mother a hamster and threatened me with bodily harm should we ever meet face to face...

The way I feel about the effects of breeding hybrids is an opinion.
But the truth of the matter is that species genetics ARE being watered down and muddied. For better for worse. And I know it bothers me more than most people.

 

[starsevol]

Even though I dont know definately that my girls are rootbeers, based on the breeders creamsicle project I believe they probably are.

And I dont think its possible to "pollute" hybrid lines, just as I dont think that breeding a poodle/lab to a collie/shepard makes it more of a mutt than it was before.

 

[Kat]

So you're saying that even if the snake is 100% cornsnake in makeup, it's still a hybrid if it's great-great-great-great-great...-grandmother was an emoryi rat?

If we hold to your answer to scenario 1, then not only is it impossible to tell whether a corn is pure or hybrid based on appearance, WE CAN'T EVEN TELL BY GENETICS. If we take your answer to scenario 1 as true, then even if we had a MOLECULAR scan of each and every individual molecule and its configuration inside the snake vs. the norms for cornsnakes and emoryis... even if the snake was a cornsnake down to the very last molecule, it would still be a hybrid because it had emoryi ancestry?

Do you realize how silly that is? That's like saying: So, if 2+2=4, and 1+2=3 and then 3+1=4, only the 4 that came from 2+2 is a pure 4, and you can't tell if a 4 is pure by looking at it, you have to know what you added to get that 4 or else it can't be considered a pure 4.

I'm serious.

-Kat

 

[Serpwidgets]

I agree that there aren't nearly as many hybrid-haters as it seems, but they are so outspoken and obnoxious about it that it tends to silence a lot of people into not expressing their own opinion for fear of being beaten over the head with "you are evil" commentaries.

---

It seems as if another arbritrary line is being drawn as to whether or not "natural" is "better." (This is again an opinion.)

Just keep in mind that even without hybridization, the captive gene pool IS in fact changing. It is being changed by breeders who decide what to cross based on which looks, which size, what amount of eggs, the size or color of the eyes, the shape of the head, the length of the tail, the smoothness of the scales, or whatever other traits they find desireable.

Be aware that if the spontaneous mutation rate is in the ballpark of 1 in 50000, and if corns have, say, 25000 genes, then a substantial percentage of the cornsnakes you hatch are carrying mutations that do not exist in the wild populations.

At least some of the little cumulative genes being selected for in the captive population are the result of spontaneous mutations that happened in captivity, and would not be found in the wild gene pool. So if the definition of "pure" is qualified with "it has to have happened without man's intervention" then the captive population is still becoming more and more "unpure" with every generation. Hybrids or not, selection pressure is making sure that wild corns and captive corns are not on the same path.

 

[Kat]

Wut? If the creamsicle is 50% emory, and it's mated with a pure corn---all of those offspring are 25% emory---there's no variance between the 4 offspring. There is no way to mate those offspring back to each other to ever to recover a snake that has no emory blood in it---it's impossible.

So... If you bred a normal het snow to a snow, all the offspring would be identical too? Hmm... better check your logic.

-Kat

 

[starsevol]

But Kat, in your first scenerio you said if a SCIENTIST discovered a way to isolate genes. And I am saying fine, but NATURE has not discovered a way to isolate genes yet.

You can breed pure to cream forever but if 0000000000000000001 % of emoryi blood is there, it's there!

 

[Joejr14]

So you're saying that even if the snake is 100% cornsnake in makeup, it's still a hybrid if it's great-great-great-great-great...-grandmother was an emoryi rat?

If we hold to your answer to scenario 1, then not only is it impossible to tell whether a corn is pure or hybrid based on appearance, WE CAN'T EVEN TELL BY GENETICS. If we take your answer to scenario 1 as true, then even if we had a MOLECULAR scan of each and every individual molecule and its configuration inside the snake vs. the norms for cornsnakes and emoryis... even if the snake was a cornsnake down to the very last molecule, it would still be a hybrid because it had emoryi ancestry?

Do you realize how silly that is? That's like saying: So, if 2+2=4, and 1+2=3 and then 3+1=4, only the 4 that came from 2+2 is a pure 4, and you can't tell if a 4 is pure by looking at it, you have to know what you added to get that 4 or else it can't be considered a pure 4.

I'm serious.

-Kat

Well, when you pair up an emory rat x corn, you get 50/50. Then if you take that and pair with a corn, you get 25/75. If you keep going....12.5/87.5.

After several generations, it would be IMPOSSIBLE for the emoryi influence to ever hit zero. It's very simply math. It can be diffused to almost nothing, but it's a number that approaches zero, but never touches.

 

[Joejr14]

So... If you bred a normal het snow to a snow, all the offspring would be identical too? Hmm... better check your logic.

-Kat

No offense, but this might be the most ridiculous logic I've ever seen.

You're talking about a snake that is het snow paired with a snow---what does that have to do with pairing a creamsicle to a normal cornsnake?

I'm not talking about the amel influence on those resulting snakes, I'm talking about the emory blood in the snake. That is two different things.

That would be like saying normal het snow x snow = jungle corns. You're still producing cornsnakes, regardless of what morph they appear as.

It doesn't matter what offspring you pick from your cross, if you pair a 25/75 emory/corn creamsicle to another with the same percentage of emory blood, it's still results with the same percentage of influence.

If you take a creamsicle that's 75% corn and 25% emory and pair it with a rootbeer from that clutch---you still end up with snakes that are 75% corn and 25% emory.....some will be rootbeers and some will be creams. Doesn't mean the creams are any more or less emory.