Wild caught animals...

[Michael823]

... I try not to post threads that don't directly involve me, or that are too rant-ish, but this is something that's been eating at me lately. I come across ads everyday of people in the reptile community (mostly on Kingsnake.com) who post for sale ads, by the dozens, of animals that have been wild-caught. I have to say, this is by far my biggest pet-peeve of the hobby.

It makes me sick to my stomach to think of think of the condition of the earth, and how rapidly habitat is being destroyed or occupied by people, at the expense of the millions of creatures that also share the earth with us... but that's for another time. It makes me even sicker to think that some of the people who 'supposedly' care so much about reptiles and amphibians are such a part of the problem, by making it acceptable to take wild animals and sell them to make a quick buck, especially with there being SO many captive bred options for someone to raise their own.

I can't understand how people can, in good conscience, steal wild animals from the environments that they've so desperately tried to survive in, just to make a profit off of them. I guess I can understand the occasional person who caught a snake/frog/etc... as a baby, and now as an adult, this animal needs to be re-homed. But when I see animals being sold in lots as "wild caught" animals, I get disgusted. I would never sell, or buy, an animal that I knew to be wild-caught, and for good reason...

These animals have competed for natural resources their whole lives, only to be the chosen lucky ones to have made it this long. They are the foundation of all life for their species, and have been naturally selected to survive into adult-hood, and by the hands of people (who should be the ones to have their best interest) they are taken for profit. And of those animals who are stolen from their natural habitats, only some will actually survive the stress (and on-setting disease) of capture...

Also, I do understand that all animals as pets were at one time wild-caught. But most were the stock that propagated captive breeding, so that there wouldn't be so much destruction and intrusion to their wild counterparts.

Sorry for the long-winded rant, but I hope that I'm not the only person who would agree.

 

[Snakewhisperer]

Seemed shorter than some of the ones I've made about the subject. Good points. But lets also not forget that WC animals also tend to not take pre-killed food, if they even eat in captivity, and can carry parasites that can spread to others in the keeper's care.

 

[Razz]

I totally agree with this rant.

 

[Christen]

OMGosh I guess I am a little nieve and need to become a member of kingsnakes.com. I didn't realize that there was so many that are doing that. From what I understand, and I know it is true here, it is illegal to sell WC animals. I do have a WC snake and I would never sell her not just because it is illegal, but because it is wrong. If for some reason I could not care for her and at this point I do not think she could be released. I would find a home for her to someone that understands that she is a WC and not just because it is cool to have a WC. That just disgusts me.

 

[MysticExotics]

I don't agree with someone who collects several just to sell, but I have no problem who gets permitted to collect some who intend on adding to their bloodlines.
I have a female that was WC 4 yrs ago, & I also have 2 of her offspring.
I intend to continue her bloodline (Alabama).
I would only get WC animals from someone I know is responsible about it.

 

[Michael823]

@Snakewhisperer- Yeah, that's a good point too. I'm more speaking from the perspective of those who are selling, but you're absolutely right... there are plenty of reasons why it's a terrible idea to purchase them as well. Glad you've made some rants on the subject too, because I think it's a subject that pushes the hobby, and our experience with nature, in the wrong direction.

@Razz- Thank you, and glad you agree !

@Cmal- I'm not actually a member at Kingsnake.com (not even sure if it's really a forum?). I just frequent it to look at awesome snakes for sale that I can't buy anyways, lol. I don't really blame the site in any way, nor is it the only site that allows ads like that, but I've just noticed a lot (for me) of ads that dealt with wild-caught animals.


It just hits especially close to home when I see native wildlife from my area being sold as "wild-caught's". I know from experience how valuable, and sometimes hard to find, some of these animals are in the habitats around here, so to see them 'lot-ted' off in large amounts, it really upsets me.

 

[Michael823]

I don't agree with someone who collects several just to sell, but I have no problem who gets permitted to collect some who intend on adding to their bloodlines.
I have a female that was WC 4 yrs ago, & I also have 2 of her offspring.
I intend to continue her bloodline (Alabama).
I would only get WC animals from someone I know is responsible about it.

If you intend on furthering a specific blood-line, and understand, respect and attempt to benefit that species in the long run (by using a small group of collected animals for captive breeding), as well as appreciate that particular animals place in nature, than there's definitely an exception to what I was eluding to. After-all, this is where our CB pets essentially came from in the first place.

I would say that this is not the case for the vast majority of animals that have been collected from the wild to be sold, though. At least from what I've seen and read. But I do understand your point.

 

[MysticExotics]

I don't frequent ks.com, but I share in your frustration with people that are selling mass amounts of WC animals for profit.
Unfortunately, many people think it's "cool" to own a WC animal.

 

[wretchedprocess]

Oh, I am also quite upset by wild-caught animals. I'm trying to get a couple of baby Tanimbar pythons, which are pretty rare in the states. And it would be very easy if I were willing to buy wild-caught or captive-hatched! But I'm not. I know that in order for there to be captive bred reptiles, there do need to be some wild-caught specimens initially. But I am not the right person to own those animals, nor do I believe most of the people who import them are the right people to be doing so. I'll wait on my Tanimbars if I have to, to get them from reputable breeders, who know what they're doing and have been doing this a lot longer than me, and have ethics I can stand.

The WC question is kind of a Big Deal for me, because a year or so ago I naively bought a WC Chinese Green Snake from a show. It just didn't occur to me that he *could* be WC, and I didn't know what I was getting into. I have done my very, very best with him, and he's still alive, but probably not for much longer. It's just difficult to keep him happy in captivity. If I could fly back to Taiwan and put him in a tree and watch him go, I would cry my eyes out, but be much happier. I love Prize so much I wish I had never met him, and it breaks my damn heart that I can't make him happy. I converted a china cabinet into a cage so he would have some space. I have tried to raise guppies to feed him, bought all kinds of fancy insects at shows, scented pinkies, everything. And now he's hardly ever even eating his nightcrawlers.

Prize is beautiful. When I bought him, he was an inquisitive, energetic, active animal. Now he hides all day every day and I think he;s just waiting to die.

And I HATE the system that did this to him, with an incredible passion I seldom bring up, because the reptile hobby is divisive enough and it's not very PC. And I will never, never be stupid enough to be a part of that system again by buying wild-caught animals.

So yeah. Rants. I got ya.

I had another dream last night about Prize eating. Seriously. I dream about this sort of thing all the time. I would give him my own blood if it could fix this. And I don't want this, or worse, happening to other animals just because some humans are dreadful enough people that they view another creature's life as nothing more than the opportunity to make five bucks.

I better stop thinking about this now. But yeah, you're not alone. The "Other pythons" section on Kingsnake is horrible for this. But I still look, just in case, one day...

 

[cobained]

I also completely agree. It's one thing for someone to collect a few specimans for a personal collection and go on to breed them, but to go collect animals out of the wild just to make money is upsetting. I have a problem with anyone buying an animal and turning around and selling it for a huge profit without investing anything in it...I understand there's lots of resale, and that's ok, but don't take something for free and sell it tomorrow. Especially with species that are readily available CB.

 

[tyflier]

I don't completely disagree, but there are several points of contention to be made...

First, most commercial collectors are permitted to do so, and they pay a fair price for said permit in exchange for the privilege of reselling wild caught reptiles. There is a substantial financial investment as well as a substantial time investment when capturing or hunting for commercial purposes.

Second, these permits are typically offered only in specific numbers and only for certain species. The number of permits offered varies depending on a variety of factors including, but not limited to the strength of the populations being permitted, the overall habitat health and it's ability to support the animals with resources available, and strict record keeping of animals caught, sold, bred, left alive, found dead, sex of each, approximate age, and size...for each permitted species. It's not "stealing" if you pay for the licenses and permits required to do it legally.

Someone mentioned humankind's decimation of habitat. I agree that humans suck. But it is partly due to this decimation of habitat and encroachment by humans that overpopulations of many species exist. This is one reason why people are able to purchase licenses and permits to hunt and/or capture for resale certain species in most states.

Someone else mentioned WC animals not readily accepting pre-killed prey, and this is generally a wive's tale. The majority of commonly caught and sold colubrids on the market will readily take FK prey in captivity, because most are not above eating reasonably fresh carrion such as roadkill in the wild. Snakes in general are, above all else, opportunistic. For the record, colubrids are the most commonly bought and sold snakes in the pet market. Food is food, and if you offer the average wild snake food when it is hungry, it will eat it, live or not. Based on my experience, wild caught snakes are no more "picky" in their eating habits than captive bred snakes. Certainly some are specialists, but 9 out of 10 times, these specialists are "picky" whether they are wild caught or captive bred, without much discrimination between the two.

Parasites, both external and internal, are very easy to take care of without risking any exposure to LTC and CB animals already in your collection. It's not even a little bit difficult to accomplish both in a relatively short period of time, with absolutely no ill side effects for the snake...

A great majority of the problems associated with keeping wild caught animals in captivity can be resolved with a keen understanding of the animal, it's origins, and it's specific needs, and how to properly provide those for said animal. Research on ANY animal is key to success, be it wild caught or captive bred.

Now I don't necessarily agree with the commercial collection and resale of wild caught snakes, but it isn't theft, it isn't stealing, it isn't illegal, and it isn't unethical, as long as you follow the regulations set forth for the species you are selling.

Your morals values are your moral values, and you are absolutely welcome to have and share your opinion. But let's be honest, there is a huge difference between poaching animals to sell on the black market, and legally capturing and reselling wild snakes as a business. The vast majority of the ads you see on places like KS.com are placed by individuals with every legal right to do so, whom have paid for that right, and whom deserve to not be referred to as thieves, liars, or in any other manner unethical in their business dealings...

End my rant...

 

[Carinata]

I don't completely disagree, but there are several points of contention to be made...

First, most commercial collectors are permitted to do so, and they pay a fair price for said permit in exchange for the privilege of reselling wild caught reptiles. There is a substantial financial investment as well as a substantial time investment when capturing or hunting for commercial purposes.

Second, these permits are typically offered only in specific numbers and only for certain species. The number of permits offered varies depending on a variety of factors including, but not limited to the strength of the populations being permitted, the overall habitat health and it's ability to support the animals with resources available, and strict record keeping of animals caught, sold, bred, left alive, found dead, sex of each, approximate age, and size...for each permitted species. It's not "stealing" if you pay for the licenses and permits required to do it legally.

Someone mentioned humankind's decimation of habitat. I agree that humans suck. But it is partly due to this decimation of habitat and encroachment by humans that overpopulations of many species exist. This is one reason why people are able to purchase licenses and permits to hunt and/or capture for resale certain species in most states.

Someone else mentioned WC animals not readily accepting pre-killed prey, and this is generally a wive's tale. The majority of commonly caught and sold colubrids on the market will readily take FK prey in captivity, because most are not above eating reasonably fresh carrion such as roadkill in the wild. Snakes in general are, above all else, opportunistic. For the record, colubrids are the most commonly bought and sold snakes in the pet market. Food is food, and if you offer the average wild snake food when it is hungry, it will eat it, live or not. Based on my experience, wild caught snakes are no more "picky" in their eating habits than captive bred snakes. Certainly some are specialists, but 9 out of 10 times, these specialists are "picky" whether they are wild caught or captive bred, without much discrimination between the two.

Parasites, both external and internal, are very easy to take care of without risking any exposure to LTC and CB animals already in your collection. It's not even a little bit difficult to accomplish both in a relatively short period of time, with absolutely no ill side effects for the snake...

A great majority of the problems associated with keeping wild caught animals in captivity can be resolved with a keen understanding of the animal, it's origins, and it's specific needs, and how to properly provide those for said animal. Research on ANY animal is key to success, be it wild caught or captive bred.

Now I don't necessarily agree with the commercial collection and resale of wild caught snakes, but it isn't theft, it isn't stealing, it isn't illegal, and it isn't unethical, as long as you follow the regulations set forth for the species you are selling.

Your morals values are your moral values, and you are absolutely welcome to have and share your opinion. But let's be honest, there is a huge difference between poaching animals to sell on the black market, and legally capturing and reselling wild snakes as a business. The vast majority of the ads you see on places like KS.com are placed by individuals with every legal right to do so, whom have paid for that right, and whom deserve to not be referred to as thieves, liars, or in any other manner unethical in their business dealings...

End my rant...

Took the words out of my mouth!

 

[kathylove]

Hmmm...I may have to be a lone voice of "partial" dissent...

...and it promises to be a long essay - sorry!

Although emotionally I totally agree with you, and wouldn't want to be a part of the wild caught trade, there is a little more to it than one might suspect from looking just at the surface of the trade. Maybe because I have been involved SO long (seems like a century or so!), and because I have seen in person, up close, the trade in Florida, Madagascar, and some other places, I may have some different perspectives than some people.

I agree that the average hobbyist should stick with captive bred because it increases their chances of success. And they may not know yet just which species of wild caught are endangered in the wild, and which will do well in captivity. I certainly have no problem, emotionally or otherwise, with breeders obtaining new, w.c. bloodlines or new w.c. species for new projects.

BUT - from a logical, and biological, viewpoint, there are reasons that CERTAIN other w.c. specimens are not necessarily a bad thing, even if it doesn't sit well emotionally.

One example is "weed" species - those that are artificially abundant in altered habitats that humans have created. Examples are agricultural areas that support huge numbers of corns, rats, kings, and also chameleons in Madagascar such as panthers, carpets, oustalet's, and spiny chams that could never live in those numbers in pristine habitats.

Back when I first started keeping herps in the late '60s, and especially in the '70s, there were no c.b. herps available. Everything was w.c., unfortunately. Breeding (or buying) c.b. reptiles was just a dream that a few herpers occasionally attained, seemingly by just good luck back then. But we still found that many species did extremely well, especially rats, corns, and kings. And when we discovered that snakes would often eat frozen thawed rodents, we also found that most w.c. rats, corns, and kings would eat them as well. So, although I would much prefer to see everyone support the domestic bred hobby, certain species are not at all impacted environmentally by collection, and certain species USUALLY do quite well as pets, even if wild caught.

Another consideration is that in countries such as Madagascar, the primary threat to ALL wildlife is habitat destruction. The human population is very young, and growing fast. They need places to live, work, and grow food. Forest has been removed at a fast pace. The average pay is VERY low there, so they clear land for their oxen and gardens. BUT - if they can collect, farm, or ranch native species of plants and animals in their native habitat, then they have great motivation to preserve that species and its habitat. Is it better to have a "hands off" approach to conservation so that we can feel better about not allowing commercialization, or is it better to promote a managed approach that may allow poor people to profit enough so that they may preserve instead of clear the land?

So while I do agree with you emotionally, I also think it is important to separate your emotional response from logic, and consider whether the w.c. trade is in fact detrimental to various populations, and whether in fact ALL species of w.c. animals generally do poorly in captivity. The logical answer, of course, is SOMETIMES yes, and SOMETIMES no. In my opinion, each species and each locality needs to be considered on a case by case basis based on logic rather than emotion. Only then can you make a rational decision as to whether a particular species from a particular place should or should not be commercialized from the wild.

I hope that long winded response makes sense, even though it doesn't entirely agree with most of the members here. I tend to be practical above all, and the above opinion seems the most practical to me.

 

[wretchedprocess]

I certainly didn't mean to imply that everyone who imports WC snakes is a horrible person. My accidental run-in turned out to be with someone I later found out was notorious for sick snakes, mites, misleading information, and suchlike, though, and that has left a bad taste in my mouth. And I do disagree with the idea that we need to import more normal ball pythons from Africa when every rescue in the country is clogged with the poor things and can't adopt them out to save our lives.

But, as I should have mentioned if I didn't, in order to have captive bred animals, you have to star out with wild-caught. The breeders I am looking at for my eventual Tanimbars all have at least some WC stock-- there's no way to do otherwise. But I really do feel it's important to support ethical captive breeding (by which I mean places that aren't horrible filthy snake-mills, not that all captive breeding is ethical and no wild collecting is). Snakes die, and not just a few of them, from the stress of being collected from the wild, shipped (often in bad conditions), and suddenly subjected to poking by creatures that would have been predators before (us). CB snakes are trained from birth to recognize humans and cages and suchlike as a part of life, which reduces the stress immensely. Can't help it, that's important to me. I am very concerned with the health of individual animals. Unfortunately, not everyone is, be they importers or breeders.

I did not, however, intend to question the legality of anyone's collecting procedures. If it seemed I was, I apologize. That's not something I've really looked into, and I wouldn't want to make assertions without any idea of what I was talking about. (Promise!)

 

[kathylove]

HAHA!

As usual, I take WAY too long to write my long winded responses, lol! I see much of what I just wrote was covered just before I posted. At least I am not the only one who sees it in shades of gray instead of black and white.

And I do totally agree - if you find it emotionally or morally wrong to do something (anything), then it would not be true to yourself to participate in the activity. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't consider the logic of others' activities that you personally don't agree with - IMHO, of course!

 

[The_Thunderer]

And I do totally agree - if you find it emotionally or morally wrong to do something (anything), then it would not be true to yourself to participate in the activity. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't consider the logic of others' activities that you personally don't agree with - IMHO, of course!

Very nicely said.... and quite applicable to MANY, MANY other topics as well.

 

[Michael823]

I'm really not trying to demonize anyone, or ignore certain aspects of the issue, but to me it's about this...

Why do we keep reptiles/amphibians as pets?

Seeing as though it's not required that we own them, my answer is this (and people are free to feel differently)... We keep them because we have an interest in them, and we genuinely care about their well being. We enjoy providing for them in ways that enrich both human and animal in the best way that we see fit in captivity, and the goal is to have these animals for their natural life (or at least to find a home that can).

Now other people may disagree, but I see no reason other than profit to collect wild animals and re-sell them. Permitted or not, I think that it firmly goes against my reasons for keeping them in the first place. I wish there was a legitimate study to back this up, but I'm willing to bet that WC animals end up dying in transit, or under an owners care at an earlier age at dramatically different rates than if they were CB. I would feel safe in saying that it's a fact, but with out proof I'll just say that I'm willing to bet the ranch.

With that, I feel confident in saying that the animals best interest is not high on the totem poll. And that's just from collecting them and selling them. Add to that the difficulties in caring for a WC animal vs CB adds to one's inability to properly care for the animal, which I would say is not only a threat to the animal, but the keepers experiences are probably far less enriching compared to if it had been a CB animal.

 

[VickyChaiTea]

I'm really not trying to demonize anyone, or ignore certain aspects of the issue, but to me it's about this...

Why do we keep reptiles/amphibians as pets?

Seeing as though it's not required that we own them, my answer is this (and people are free to feel differently)... We keep them because we have an interest in them, and we genuinely care about their well being. We enjoy providing for them in ways that enrich both human and animal in the best way that we see fit in captivity, and the goal is to have these animals for their natural life (or at least to find a home that can).

Now other people may disagree, but I see no reason other than profit to collect wild animals and re-sell them. Permitted or not, I think that it firmly goes against my reasons for keeping them in the first place. I wish there was a legitimate study to back this up, but I'm willing to bet that WC animals end up dying in transit, or under an owners care at an earlier age at dramatically different rates than if they were CB. I would feel safe in saying that it's a fact, but with out proof I'll just say that I'm willing to bet the ranch.

With that, I feel confident in saying that the animals best interest is not high on the totem poll. And that's just from collecting them and selling them. Add to that the difficulties in caring for a WC animal vs CB adds to one's inability to properly care for the animal, which I would say is not only a threat to the animal, but the keepers experiences are probably far less enriching compared to if it had been a CB animal.

^This. Collecting from the wild when there is a perfectly available captive bred population is unnecessary, and does not have the animals or the environments benefit in mind.

I can understand catching wild animals to establish captive bred populations, to reduce numbers of artificially increased populations or to remove invasive species, and to breed rare or endangered animals to be released into the wild to supplement the population.

Otherwise it's putting the animal at so many unnecessary risks that it's immoral in my book.

 

[tyflier]

I'm really not trying to demonize anyone, or ignore certain aspects of the issue, but to me it's about this...

Why do we keep reptiles/amphibians as pets?

Seeing as though it's not required that we own them, my answer is this (and people are free to feel differently)... We keep them because we have an interest in them, and we genuinely care about their well being. We enjoy providing for them in ways that enrich both human and animal in the best way that we see fit in captivity, and the goal is to have these animals for their natural life (or at least to find a home that can).

Now other people may disagree, but I see no reason other than profit to collect wild animals and re-sell them. Permitted or not, I think that it firmly goes against my reasons for keeping them in the first place. I wish there was a legitimate study to back this up, but I'm willing to bet that WC animals end up dying in transit, or under an owners care at an earlier age at dramatically different rates than if they were CB. I would feel safe in saying that it's a fact, but with out proof I'll just say that I'm willing to bet the ranch.

With that, I feel confident in saying that the animals best interest is not high on the totem poll. And that's just from collecting them and selling them. Add to that the difficulties in caring for a WC animal vs CB adds to one's inability to properly care for the animal, which I would say is not only a threat to the animal, but the keepers experiences are probably far less enriching compared to if it had been a CB animal.

What of the multitude of wild animals suffering from overpopulation due to habitat decimation? This is an issue in a great number of places in the world, including the US. Increasing human encroachment leads to decreasing habitat, and surplus populations of some species. Removing these animals is absolutely beneficial in a situation such as this.

Ultimately, the situation is not nearly as "cut & dry" as you would like it to be. Removing a large number of animals from a population is not always bad. WC animals are not always difficult to care for. Keeping a WC animal is not always a threat to the animal. There are shades of grey in the situation that your emotional investment isn't allowing you to see. There is nothing wrong with that, and I certainly wouldn't begrudge anyone the right to an emotional, passionate response to the situation.

In the end, your emotional response to the situation is not the only acceptable response. There is a fair amount of logic in my post and Kathy's post that fairly well lays to rest a lot of your emotional concerns for WC animals. Most of the initial posts in this topic are very generalized, making them only partially accurate, and only to a certain extent...

 

[Carinata]

I work for a reptile importer and breeder and I have some feeling on the subject as someone who has personal and work experience. WC animals really lay the foundation for new morphs and new species in herptaculture. I have a collection of largely WC animals, well my AFT collection. New bloodlines, strengthen the current gene pool and actually prevent the defects seen from inbreeding. I agree if little Jimmy walks outside, catches a Garter Snake and throws it up on Fauna to make a quick buck, that's wrong. Now, someone with proper permits should be completely allowed to catch and sell WC animals. The state wouldn't issue these permits if there was a population issue. As far as importing goes, CITES covers that. WC animals are how we get our new morphs and new blood, so before you say WC snakes are bad look at your animals and realize that in order to have that Cali King or Ball Python and realize it came from a WC bloodline. Look at the vast Ball Python morphs out there! Lessers, Pastels, Champagnes, G-Stripes, Pieds, Red-Stripes! All of them came in on import first.