Wild caught animals...

[Rich Z]

Heck, over the years I have had people contact me about collecting wild caught specimens here in north Florida for them. Especially things like feeder anoles and brown backed skinks. I always tell them that they could not pay me enough money to compensate for the joy I have seeing such critters in the wild, and my taking them from there would then leave me without that possibility.

The other day we had a gopher tortoise running around in our front yard. Not a chance in HELL anyone could pay me to grab him up and ship him off to someone.

But heck, in my younger days I did my share of collecting in the wild. And yes, I did sell off some of the stuff. Particularly babies that came from gravid females. I think anyone who has been into this sort of thing for a decade or more has likely done so. A lot of things have changed over the years, though....

Oh, and for the record, I RARELY had wild caught snakes refuse meals in captivity. Whether live, fresh killed, or frozen/thawed mice. Heck, I remember as a kid having a large yellow rat snake I caught in Englewood, Florida that would eat anything and everything. When I would accidentally leave the lid off of his cage (as kids tend to do), he had NO interest whatsoever in escaping. He would not go any further away than to be coiled up on top of the cage (I used fish tanks at that time), or coiled up next to it. He knew he had a good thing going where he was. :grin01: Poor guy had scars all over him, so evidently he had it pretty rough out in the wild growing up. If ever a snake was actually thankful for being in captivity, this sure was one...

 

[Michael823]

What of the multitude of wild animals suffering from overpopulation due to habitat decimation? This is an issue in a great number of places in the world, including the US. Increasing human encroachment leads to decreasing habitat, and surplus populations of some species. Removing these animals is absolutely beneficial in a situation such as this.

Well of course habitat destruction is a big issue, and a bigger issue than the collecting of WC animals. But the habitat destruction is mostly caused by people who aren't interested in keeping or understanding reptiles and amphibians. I hold people collecting and selling WC animals to a higher standard (fair or unfair) because, if 'we', who should be the ones that care and understand the importance of reptiles/amphibians the most are so tempted to do such a thing, than there really isn't much hope to ever have change.

Also, I think that the argument of 'some' species needing to be collected as a way of thinning out over population is a rare one. I would seriously like to see more evidence that this is a large enough percentage of the WC trade that it's worth using as a counter-argument.

I have stated that there are possibly relevant reasons for collecting WC animals, but I'm willing to bet my life that those are very slim numbers compared to the irresponsibility for so many.

Ultimately, the situation is not nearly as "cut & dry" as you would like it to be. Removing a large number of animals from a population is not always bad. WC animals are not always difficult to care for. Keeping a WC animal is not always a threat to the animal. There are shades of grey in the situation that your emotional investment isn't allowing you to see. There is nothing wrong with that, and I certainly wouldn't begrudge anyone the right to an emotional, passionate response to the situation.

In the end, your emotional response to the situation is not the only acceptable response. There is a fair amount of logic in my post and Kathy's post that fairly well lays to rest a lot of your emotional concerns for WC animals. Most of the initial posts in this topic are very generalized, making them only partially accurate, and only to a certain extent...

It's really not this "save the wild animals" emotional reaction that you would paint so cut and dry either. I see the problem in a very real way everyday. It upsets me to no end that my grandfather, and those that follow a similar path, have spent a majority of his life fighting for a place for for wild animals (mainly turtles) to be able to live interfered with. I'm talking dedicated research, doing talks, writing books, and having many influential peers on the subject who agree with him, and his fight to save just a pocket of the earth for these animals to have a place to continue to survive (as they had for millions of years before us).

He's seeing drastically lower numbers every year for animals that he has made connections with in the wild, and for which he tried to lay the ground work to ensure their survival. Yes, habitat destruction is a big cause, but until he becomes Bill Gates, owning the habitat to protect them is a difficult task. So he studies and gives talks to people willing to listen, in hopes that they will also care enough to share the message.

But he's now competing with, not only habitat loss, but the reptile trades rampant collection of these animals that have resulted in a decrease in the local populations.


This isn't a live and let live discussion for me, like some other discussions can be boiled down to. Allowing this excessive collecting and reselling to live isn't in turn letting live. These animals are only renewable if we give them time and space to re-populate, which is not being done by a lot of these people collecting high volumes of WC animals for resale.

 

[Michael823]

Heck, over the years I have had people contact me about collecting wild caught specimens here in north Florida for them. Especially things like feeder anoles and brown backed skinks. I always tell them that they could not pay me enough money to compensate for the joy I have seeing such critters in the wild, and my taking them from there would then leave me without that possibility.

The other day we had a gopher tortoise running around in our front yard. Not a chance in HELL anyone could pay me to grab him up and ship him off to someone.

But heck, in my younger days I did my share of collecting in the wild. And yes, I did sell off some of the stuff. Particularly babies that came from gravid females. I think anyone who has been into this sort of thing for a decade or more has likely done so. A lot of things have changed over the years, though....

I really like this post. It's my same philosophy when it comes to seeing animals in the wild. Sure, I would love to bring home some of the amazing snakes, frogs, and salamanders as pets. But I have the ability to find CB alternatives that are often more attractive, and less impact on the wild than if they were WC.

Sure, there are some gorgeous snakes, frogs and salamanders around here, but what I find most amazing about animals such as the Eastern Milk Snakes, Jefferson's Salamanders, etc... around here, isn't that they are striking in and of themselves, but that they actually exist in my area to find and enjoy. Capturing them would be a disservice to the joy I feel when I find them, and the satisfaction that I feel when I release them.

Also, I do see that there are MANY people who started off by collecting WC animals, and I do understand that. Things used to be much different I'm sure, even in my short lifetime things have dramatically changed.

The intent of my posts aren't to demonize anyone. I just see little hope for a bright future for wild animals, and I see the incredible power of our reptile communities. We are some of the most understanding people when it comes to appreciating and learning about animals that other people see as throw away's, and that's why I feel so passionate to share this.

 

[Michael823]

WC animals are how we get our new morphs and new blood, so before you say WC snakes are bad look at your animals and realize that in order to have that Cali King or Ball Python and realize it came from a WC bloodline. Look at the vast Ball Python morphs out there! Lessers, Pastels, Champagnes, G-Stripes, Pieds, Red-Stripes! All of them came in on import first.

I take it all back... I didn't realize that my snakes are essentially the product of wild animals, lol. Not trying to sound like a jerk, but this is clearly something that I consider when I speak about this issue.

And on that same related topic of BP morphs... I have a 'hunch' that there 'might' be a 'certain' group of breeders of a certain animal (^) who have been illegally collecting some of my area's (in NH and MA) most endangered wild-animals. That's all I'm going to say about that, and hopefully 'if' that's the case, they get exposed and punished accordingly.

So let's not act like these importers are always permitted to do the things that they do. They might just not always get caught, or they 'might' have lower ranked employees doing their dirty work for them. Radio tracking a snake to a backpack 'could' be substantial evidence, 'if' that was the case of course.

It goes to my point that greed will always take precedent for some people in this hobby. And with really greedy people, they will find ways to work around the rules.

 

[ceduke]

I don't have much to add, but I am enjoying reading everyone's thoughts on this issue. I would like to see some changes made in the WC trade. My first snake was a WC rough green snake, and at the time I was so ignorant that it didn't even occur to me that he might be WC. I'd love to see more information available to buyers, and I'd like it to be harder for the average Joe to acquire WC animals.

 

[TheJadeReptile]

Heck, over the years I have had people contact me about collecting wild caught specimens here in north Florida for them. Especially things like feeder anoles and brown backed skinks. I always tell them that they could not pay me enough money to compensate for the joy I have seeing such critters in the wild, and my taking them from there would then leave me without that possibility.

The other day we had a gopher tortoise running around in our front yard. Not a chance in HELL anyone could pay me to grab him up and ship him off to someone.

But heck, in my younger days I did my share of collecting in the wild. And yes, I did sell off some of the stuff. Particularly babies that came from gravid females. I think anyone who has been into this sort of thing for a decade or more has likely done so. A lot of things have changed over the years, though....

Oh, and for the record, I RARELY had wild caught snakes refuse meals in captivity. Whether live, fresh killed, or frozen/thawed mice. Heck, I remember as a kid having a large yellow rat snake I caught in Englewood, Florida that would eat anything and everything. When I would accidentally leave the lid off of his cage (as kids tend to do), he had NO interest whatsoever in escaping. He would not go any further away than to be coiled up on top of the cage (I used fish tanks at that time), or coiled up next to it. He knew he had a good thing going where he was. :grin01: Poor guy had scars all over him, so evidently he had it pretty rough out in the wild growing up. If ever a snake was actually thankful for being in captivity, this sure was one...

I don't have anything to the issue. But I love this post, Rich! About how long did the Yellow Rat Snake live? If you remember.

 

[kathylove]

I am not naive enough to think that just because the laws (whether international or of some particular country) either allow, or prohibit, the collection and sale of a particular species, it means those laws are actually based on research and science. Unfortunately, they are more often based on politics, just as python laws in south Florida. But unless you know the specifics of a particular situation, the laws are all you have to go by, inadequate as they may be. If laws were based on logic, then Madagascar would allow quotas on abundant and wide ranging Sanzinia tree boas, but possibly restrict some other species that is more difficult to care for, but legal. There are MANY examples of either somewhat rare, or maybe cheap but difficult to care for species being allowed for collection and resale. OTOH, there are MANY examples of abundant species (beardies in Australia, along with many other Aussie species, for example) being totally prohibited, only because of politics, not science.

Back in the '90s, Chile opened for a while and was exporting HUGE numbers of small, cheap, difficult to keep lizards of various types. I detested that kind of trade, even though it was legal. My personal opinion is that it would have been morally superior to illegally smuggle beardies and Sanzinia compared to legally importing "disposable" Chilean lizards, even though that was legal. Of course, I am not advocating smuggling, mainly because of the penalties if you get caught, not because I believe some politician knows more than I do about the plight of some particular species of herp, and whether it can stand some collecting. Ever since the horrendous onslaught of humaniac driven legislation against animal keeping in general, I have NO faith in politicians to use science when deciding our (and wildlife's) fate.

The above comments were not in any way meant to give approval to excesses in collecting of wild caught animals for profit. I see no problem with profit - we need more of it in this economy. But we also need logic and science when determining proper legislation. The above is just a cautionary statement to avoid putting too much faith in self serving politicians - they are just as invested in certain outcomes as are the importers and other businesses who oppose them.

 

[StrangeCargo]

I am not naive enough to think that just because the laws (whether international or of some particular country) either allow, or prohibit, the collection and sale of a particular species, it means those laws are actually based on research and science. Unfortunately, they are more often based on politics, just as python laws in south Florida. But unless you know the specifics of a particular situation, the laws are all you have to go by, inadequate as they may be. If laws were based on logic, then Madagascar would allow quotas on abundant and wide ranging Sanzinia tree boas, but possibly restrict some other species that is more difficult to care for, but legal. There are MANY examples of either somewhat rare, or maybe cheap but difficult to care for species being allowed for collection and resale. OTOH, there are MANY examples of abundant species (beardies in Australia, along with many other Aussie species, for example) being totally prohibited, only because of politics, not science.

Back in the '90s, Chile opened for a while and was exporting HUGE numbers of small, cheap, difficult to keep lizards of various types. I detested that kind of trade, even though it was legal. My personal opinion is that it would have been morally superior to illegally smuggle beardies and Sanzinia compared to legally importing "disposable" Chilean lizards, even though that was legal. Of course, I am not advocating smuggling, mainly because of the penalties if you get caught, not because I believe some politician knows more than I do about the plight of some particular species of herp, and whether it can stand some collecting. Ever since the horrendous onslaught of humaniac driven legislation against animal keeping in general, I have NO faith in politicians to use science when deciding our (and wildlife's) fate.

The above comments were not in any way meant to give approval to excesses in collecting of wild caught animals for profit. I see no problem with profit - we need more of it in this economy. But we also need logic and science when determining proper legislation. The above is just a cautionary statement to avoid putting too much faith in self serving politicians - they are just as invested in certain outcomes as are the importers and other businesses who oppose them.

WELL SAID KATHY! Totally agree.

 

[Lennycorn]

... people in the reptile community (mostly on Kingsnake.com) who post for sale ads, by the dozens, of animals that have been wild-caught. I have to say, this is by far my biggest pet-peeve of the hobby.
...........It makes me even sicker to think that some of the people who 'supposedly' care so much about reptiles and amphibians are such a part of the problem, by making it acceptable to take wild animals and sell them to make a quick buck, especially with there being SO many captive bred options for someone to raise their own.
......I can't understand how people can, in good conscience, steal wild animals from the environments that they've so desperately tried to survive in, just to make a profit off of them.
..........Also, I do understand that all animals as pets were at one time wild-caught. But most were the stock that propagated captive breeding, so that there wouldn't be so much destruction and intrusion to their wild counterparts.

Sorry for the long-winded rant, but I hope that I'm not the only person who would agree.

I tend to agree with you. Catching (A) wild specie for it's ""morph"" to develop the bloodline is one thing but just to sell for profit. Pfft!!
Yeah it might be legal with permits and all (if they have permits)
but like stated..... what's your morals??
Are you in it for the species or the money!!

That's what it comes down too!!

 

[knox]

My opinion as a hobbyist, and not a breeder is this.

I have zero problem with large scale breeders collecting "some" wild specimens to breed lots and lots of baby snakes to make a profit, use the profit from those sales to fund the breeding of more and more baby snakes; so that us hobbyists can find captive bred snakes from reputable people and not take them from the wild.

There has to be a profit. But the reputable breeders aren't ONLY in it for the profit. They care about producing quality animals and keeping us "little guys" from collecting mite infested wild animals.

 

[knox]

Oh, and I refuse to buy WC snakes on Kingsnake.com.

 

[VIRAGI]

I guess I had the experience that this little guy entered to my condo. When my son got back from school he saw his head sniffing out of the sofa and there he was. We had two corn snakes, the male still alive and the femail, Peggy, passed away recently due to egg binding.
This little guy was so gorgeaus I could not resist to keep him and he was starving, so he ate right away. he is a good home now and enjoying his owners that baby him all the time.
I agree, why people seek animals in the wilderness to sell them, it doesn't make any sense.

 

[knox]

I guess I had the experience that this little guy entered to my condo. When my son got back from school he saw his head sniffing out of the sofa and there he was. We had two corn snakes, the male still alive and the femail, Peggy, passed away recently due to egg binding.
This little guy was so gorgeaus I could not resist to keep him and he was starving, so he ate right away. he is a good home now and enjoying his owners that baby him all the time.
I agree, why people seek animals in the wilderness to sell them, it doesn't make any sense.

I also don't see a problem with occasionally taking a specimen from the wild to keep as a pet. Who knows... Maybe you just saved it from being dinner for a hawk or cat. Especially if they are in a building where they could EASILY be senselessly killed by someone who simply hates snakes.

At least it is still alive...

 

[MysticExotics]

I also don't see a problem with occasionally taking a specimen from the wild to keep as a pet. Who knows... Maybe you just saved it from being dinner for a hawk or cat. Especially if they are in a building where they could EASILY be senselessly killed by someone who simply hates snakes.

At least it is still alive...

If it's legal in your area. Here in WA it's illegal to keep any native species.
I would *love* to have one of the Puget Sound Garters, but I cannot.

 

[knox]

Yes.

We have Black Rats all over the place, but I purchased mine.

 

[tyflier]

I am not naive enough to think that just because the laws (whether international or of some particular country) either allow, or prohibit, the collection and sale of a particular species, it means those laws are actually based on research and science. Unfortunately, they are more often based on politics, just as python laws in south Florida. But unless you know the specifics of a particular situation, the laws are all you have to go by, inadequate as they may be. If laws were based on logic, then Madagascar would allow quotas on abundant and wide ranging Sanzinia tree boas, but possibly restrict some other species that is more difficult to care for, but legal. There are MANY examples of either somewhat rare, or maybe cheap but difficult to care for species being allowed for collection and resale. OTOH, there are MANY examples of abundant species (beardies in Australia, along with many other Aussie species, for example) being totally prohibited, only because of politics, not science.

Back in the '90s, Chile opened for a while and was exporting HUGE numbers of small, cheap, difficult to keep lizards of various types. I detested that kind of trade, even though it was legal. My personal opinion is that it would have been morally superior to illegally smuggle beardies and Sanzinia compared to legally importing "disposable" Chilean lizards, even though that was legal. Of course, I am not advocating smuggling, mainly because of the penalties if you get caught, not because I believe some politician knows more than I do about the plight of some particular species of herp, and whether it can stand some collecting. Ever since the horrendous onslaught of humaniac driven legislation against animal keeping in general, I have NO faith in politicians to use science when deciding our (and wildlife's) fate.

The above comments were not in any way meant to give approval to excesses in collecting of wild caught animals for profit. I see no problem with profit - we need more of it in this economy. But we also need logic and science when determining proper legislation. The above is just a cautionary statement to avoid putting too much faith in self serving politicians - they are just as invested in certain outcomes as are the importers and other businesses who oppose them.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[tyflier]

My opinion as a hobbyist, and not a breeder is this.

I have zero problem with large scale breeders collecting "some" wild specimens to breed lots and lots of baby snakes to make a profit, use the profit from those sales to fund the breeding of more and more baby snakes; so that us hobbyists can find captive bred snakes from reputable people and not take them from the wild.

There has to be a profit. But the reputable breeders aren't ONLY in it for the profit. They care about producing quality animals and keeping us "little guys" from collecting mite infested wild animals.

When there are permits available, and those permits are offered to the highest bidder, or by random drawing, or simply "pay to play", there is going to be a fair mix of individuals getting permits.

Some will collect to provide venom samples, offspring, and specimens to scientific endeavors, zoos, or colleges. Some will collect to breed privately, searching for new recessive traits, or line-breeding localities, or just making healthy, CB animals available to the public. Others will collect for resale. They are all paying the same price, and playing by the same rules. Moral justification is going to vary depending on the preferences of the person viewing the situation. "Person A has a good reason so they are OK, Person C is a scumbag thief". Unfortunately, it doesn't work that way. Legally, person A and person C are equal in their actions, because they are following the same established regulations.

That's not to say I agree with Person C. It's only to say that banning the commercial collection of snakes would prevent all three from collecting, not just person C. That would be very detrimental to this hobby, in my opinion...

 

[knox]

Excellent point.

Sometimes, you have to take the bad with the good.